Thank you all for coming.
I'm Jodi Segal and it is
it's great to see you.
Well, I'm really excited for today's panel.
Today's panel is called stories of success,
addiction recovery, reentry,
and building pathways.
Through education, we have a really
wonderful panel of experts here today.
And they were really grateful to
you all for for helping us out for
joining us before we get started.
There are a few things that
I want to do first of all.
Clearly honored to welcome
our colleague Leander Yazzie
who will be sharing a Land
acknowledgement with us and I'd also like
to offer labor acknowledgement
and then just before we before we
before we get started on June 3rd,
I would like to invite you all
to join us for our final one.
Book and GRC reentry program.
Event of the year and that is called.
Imagining Reentry at Green River College.
Again,
we're going to have a fantastic
panel that day of people who
really are working in the field
or who have participated in the
field of reentry education,
and we're building our programming,
who never college,
and so we'd love to have you join us and
hear your ideas and your questions as well,
so that should be a great one.
And then that's on June 3rd,
which is a Thursday,
and that will be from 12:30 to 2:00.
And then before I forget,
today's event has multiple hosts,
meaning that a lot of people have
contributed to this being able to happen.
The one book program,
the Green River College Reentry
Program arguing over college
collegiate recovery program.
Our Office of Diversity,
Equity and inclusion.
GDEC.
And then this is being offered as part of
our quarterly diversity educational Series,
which happens Wednesday afternoons.
1:00 to 3:00 PM and bring
so much to our campus.
So thank you to GDEC for sponsoring the DES.
So I would like to turn
it over to my colleague,
Leander for a plant acknowledgement.
Thank you.
Thank you Jody. Ya tha Leander
"Speaking Navajo"
Hi everyone, I just gave a
introduction of myself and who I
who I am with my 4 clans in Navajo.
Also known as Diné I'm born for
the Bitter Water and also my paternal
clan is the Water Flows Together
clan so that's my mom and my dad.
So I would like to give a little welcome and
also a little while landing knowledgement.
I would like to show my
respect and acknowledge.
Acknowledge the traditional
lands of of the Muckleshoot
people, past and present,
on which this meeting you know it takes.
Place the Muckleshoot Indian Tribe
located in the South King County.
and is the Seattle area
is federally recognized.
Indian tribe and successor to
Duwamish and Upper Puyallup
Peoples who were party to the treaties
of the Point Elliot and Medicine Creek.
So in that way I like to kick off this.
This session with the acknowledging
the first peoples who were here
before us and like to appreciate
like you think you think Jody for
inviting me and for allowing me to
give this land acknowledgement.
Thank you so much Leander
really appreciate it.
I'm before we begin.
Also any talk that is talking about.
Incarceration in the
United States also has to.
Have a has to reflect on race and racism.
An unpaid labor in this country.
Uhm, it's just it's important to
acknowledge the unpaid an involuntary labor
of black Americans through enslavement
and through prison in particular,
and also the. The labor.
Of Indigenous people of Latin people and
of Asian American people in this country.
Uhm? During reconstruction,
free black people were incarcerated
at rates that far outnumbered the
incarceration of white people and were
forced into for profit labor in this country.
According to the Vera Institute for Justice,
which is an organization that's
devoted to reform of the criminal
legal system by the 1870s.
So just after.
Arms positive minutes,
patient almost all of the people
under criminal custody in southern
states in this country for 95%
were black people and state penal
authorities deployed these imprison
people to help rebuild the South.
So much of this country is built upon the
unpaid and involuntary labor of Bipac people.
I'm also according to the
Equal Justice Initiative,
as recently as 2010,
a federal court upheld that quote
prisoners have no enforceable right to be
paid for the work under the Constitution.
Uhm?
And when people are in prison,
they don't always have.
They don't have the right to say no to.
Labor that is reimbursed at pennies.
Uhm?
Pennies on the dollar.
So it isn't just very important
to consider that that finding,
in particular in the context of mass
incarceration when we're under which
black Americans are more than five
times as likely as white Americans
to be incarcerated in this country.
So that provides a context
for today's discussion.
And.
Yeah,
so I'd like to acknowledge that as well,
so I'd like to turn this over to
my colleague Devin Kline faculty
concert Queen over college and our
facilitator for today's conversation.
So thank you, Devin,
and thank you again to all of our guests.
Good afternoon everyone.
My gratitude to Jody and Leander
to giving that started and to
all of our sponsors today.
As mentioned, my name is Kevin Kline.
I use she her pronouns.
I have been a faculty,
counselor and member of the counseling
team at Green River for 12 years.
Prior to that I worked with court
mandated programs and I also ran
a substance abuse recovery program
and acute residential program.
So these are both subjects that I have.
Some professional experience with and
I'm also an individual living in recovery,
so I have some personal experience as well.
I'm really proud of the work that our
community here at Green River has
been doing on these two issues and
so I wanted to provide some context
for the panel discussion of within
the work of Green River specifically.
So I've invited representatives from
both our reentry program and our
recovery program to give a little update,
so I'll hand it over to Kristen Higgins first
to talk a little bit about our reentry.
Program. Thank you so much, Devin.
As soon as you said that my neighbors
started working on their endless
construction project so you might hear
some sound in the background there.
You know, as a college
located in South King County,
we have always known that we have
students and community members,
faculty and staff in recovery in
various types of re-entry and with
various types of system impact.
What we haven't always fully been
able to do is to create a space
for people to bring their gifts
and abilities fully right and to
be recognized without stigma and to
receive resources to support them so
our programs have been working on
building capacity in these ways and
we're just in the process of some.
Really important kind of moments
that could be game changers.
So for in terms of reentry.
You can see Miss Susan Burton is here
and we have worked with the foundation.
The Green River College Foundation to
found a scholarship for system impacted
and formerly incarcerated students.
And the funding on that is just thanks again.
Very much to Miss Burton and to
members of our community and to
our faculty and staff who really do
contribute a lot to scholarships.
We're starting to see those coffers
fill and hopefully the 1st.
Susan Burton Re-entry Scholarship will
be offered in fall through the foundation,
so that's a big step forward for us.
Just dedicated funding for a student
who has had system impact or is
formerly incarcerated.
We also have been working with
the Office of Diversity,
Equity and Inclusion to ensure that
we will have a peer navigator hired
again to specifically work with
students who are system impacted,
and so we're quite excited to have
a peer navigator position kind of
coming together.
All of these things are coalescing and.
I believe we are also as a college
going to have.
In America or person Part Time
who yeah cross cross fingers.
Whatever superstitious things we do
to hope that the grant comes through.
But we may have an additional
position on staff which would kind
of be as I understand it,
more liaising with the community
to help folks come to campus so
those things are in the works.
And to be honest with you.
We could sort of sit here and
give shoutouts to so many people.
I would say at some of the recovery part
of me some of the reentry meetings we had.
We've had,
you know 20 people giving their time
and giving us help my colleague
Mark Barrington has really put in
the lion's share of the work Jodi
Segal has put in a ton of work.
Kate Lawson Rogers has put in
a ton of work jayshan banks,
doctor banks has put in a lot of work.
I am leaving out tons of people
and I just hope that anyone who
feels like they should have been
mentioned will be forgiving.
But what we are aiming for is this that
folks in our community we already know.
We have lots of folks who are formerly
incarcerated or system impacted.
What we don't know it or what we
haven't had really is that space and
that dedicated set of resources.
And that sort of institutional knowledge
and understanding of what we can do,
and so that is what we were
working on building.
Thanks very much for letting me speak.
Thank you so much Chris,
and so next I'll invite Kelsey
Behrens to share with us about
our collegiate recovery program.
Thank you so much seven and a lot
of what I'm going to say echoes
what Christian shared with us all,
because obviously a lot of this
work between reentry and recovery
is very interconnected.
But to give you all a bit of
an update earlier this year,
we received a grant from Washington
State University to establish or
recovery program at Green River College.
And through that we've been able
to actually hire someone who's
going to be on full time.
For the next couple of months and
then part time after that so they
should be starting next week,
which is going to be wonderful because
they're going to be completely
dedicated to developing a program
that is as student centered and
focused as possible and really
steeped in building that community
at green over that we know is here.
We just haven't necessarily had
institutional support around making
it a reality and an ongoing effort
as opposed to the amazing work that
I know individuals have done at this
college and counseling services have done.
To create those supportive spaces,
this is going to be something that's
a bit more.
Specific and for that recovery community,
so that is going to be happening.
We also in the same kind of vein,
have been able to establish a
scholarship for students who are in
recovery that funding is with the grant,
and so it does end.
We need to have all the funds
expended by June.
So if there are any students at Green
River who are in recovery and would
like to apply for that scholarship,
the application is still open.
It's very low barrier.
We're just wanting to make sure we're
supporting this many students as we can.
While we have these funds.
And then I also want to do a huge
shout out to the group of folks that
have been coming every month to a
work group meeting that is helping to
support the development of some of
these programs that were wanting to offer.
It's very much we're at a ground
level trying to figure out what the
college needs and what we want to
provide for students and so that
group has been getting together just
trying to figure out what that even
looks like here at the college.
So thank you to everyone who's
involved in that group
and then also an if you're wanting
to be involved. Please let me know.
Love to have you join and then the last
piece is also talking about this America
or we actually applied for two positions.
One specifically for folks,
event system impacted and one specifically
for folks who are in recovery and
that is to build those community
connections and resources and to help.
Bring more students to campus who have
those life experiences because we know
how valuable those individuals are
in our campus community already and
we want to make sure we're providing
that that pipeline into education.
For anyone who's interested,
and so that is what we are doing on
the recovery side is trying to keep
it short 'cause I know we've got a lot
of amazing work happening here today,
so thank you.
Thank you Kelsey.
I think it is important for us to center
this conversation in the context of
the work that we're doing on campus.
So I really do appreciate you both
giving us updates on where we stand
so that we can continue to develop
with some of the input and expertise
that we have represented here today.
So just a little housekeeping piece.
We encourage people to submit questions.
We have some ideas for questions,
but we would love to hear from
attendees today.
You can submit that in the Q&A box
on your zoom screen at the bottom.
And I'm just going to give a brief
introduction of our panelists,
but also invite them to introduce themselves
a little bit more in depth as well.
So first we have Miss Susan Burton
are one book author this year.
Miss Burton started the Fenomenale nonprofit,
a new way of Life,
co-founded all of us or none,
and wrote the memoir becoming Miss
Burton from Prisons to recovery to
leading the fight for incarcerated women.
Mr Joe Connor is a King County drug court.
Specialist of that trend and the
author of a new book entitled Causes
and Conditions a Life Experience
In Addiction and Recovery.
Mr JJ Jackson is the education reentry
navigator of reentry scholars.
Student support program at the
Evergreen State College in Washington
and a formerly incarcerated college.
Graduates Robert Ortiz is the founder
of Sober Scholars and is both a
graduate of an outreach coordinator
for Project Rebound at Cal State LA.
Currently, he's pursuing his graduate degree.
In counseling with a focus on student
development and higher education.
So I would love to invite each of our
panelists to start with providing us.
You know,
any additional information on an
introduction that you would like to
and then something about the path
that what brought of what brought
you to this work,
and perhaps a little bit of what
sustains you within the work.
I'm going to start with JJ since
he has some guidelines for us to
inform the language that we use in.
Introducing questions,
so I'll turn it over to you,
JJ. Hi, my name is James Jackson.
I'm a formerly incarcerated college
graduate and I currently serve
as a education reentry navigator
from the Evergreen State College.
I serve the South Puget Sound
and some peninsula counties.
Though one great thing about my position
is I'm not beholden to FTE for Evergreen,
so our values to get the student to
the school in the area I serve that is
going to best suit their wants and needs
as far as our educational experience.
I do want to start off with.
Well, I want to say this,
a tree service just pulled up next
door and they brought one of them
big grinders and I think it's
about to get loud so I might have
to move into another room.
But anyway,
so I want to share a language statement
with you all that I collaborated on
a few other of my with a few other
my colleagues that we use when we
present at different conferences.
Or do these types of things that
Green River has put together today,
so the language statement when looking
to engage with system impacted students
from this marginalized population,
please refrain from using
stigmatising language words such as
offender inmate fell in ex felon.
Convict suggests that people.
Are no more than their conviction.
Those negative labels only serve
to dehumanize and re traumatized.
The re traumatize the students we serve.
We recommend humanizing language
such as incarcerated people,
formerly incarcerated people,
returning Citizen and justice
involved people with centers,
the person, and not the conviction.
And so you know we share this 'cause
you know, one of one of our our
jobs is to demystify incarceration
and people who have been convicted
and now have felony status, right?
We look to. Ask you to challenge any
of your unconscious biases and the
stigmas that you hold for us right,
and see the complexity of the
human being right,
not just what you think you may
know about incarceration or people
impacted by that system. And so.
A little bit about my story is.
I grew up in North Seattle
in the 1970s and 80s,
and we lived in one of the
city's housing projects,
which they call villages,
which are like pretty small
little communities.
And that experience in my life
was like living on an island of
diversity in a sea of bigotry, right?
I just want to share that because
it has a lot to do with the person I
have become and then becoming today and so.
But for me,
addiction started pretty young.
I probably didn't realize this
until I was an adult.
Five years old, you know,
my mother's boyfriend was
smoking weed with me.
By the time I was eight years old,
I was in their stash.
By the time I was twelve,
I was dealing to get my own stash.
And I learned that I can actually
make some money to doing that,
and so by the time somehow
I made it to the 9th grade.
I'm not sure how I manipulated
my weight so that 9th grade,
but I was able to do it and but
at that time because of a lot of
the racism like at our school,
there was race Nathan Hale.
If anybody knows Lake City
neighborhood in North Seattle,
we were actually having race riots,
right around busing, busing was.
You know it.
It had started, you know,
a few years before I got into
school and everything,
but it was like,
you know that it was still in
that adjustment phase and so
there was all kinds of stuff going
on and it just wasn't for me.
I was like I'm not into none of this right?
And and like I said,
I had found out a way I could do
things different and so really life
for me became one big party, right?
An I lived like that up to the
age of 27 when I caught a case,
a pretty major marijuana case.
Come and it was at that time
that I realized that I didn't
really know anything.
I didn't have a trade.
I didn't have a skill right?
And and I did have a skill,
but I used it in a wrong way.
So customer service and leadership.
But anyway, I I realized that I really didn't
know how to do anything. But, you know,
sell drugs and kick it pretty much right.
And so for me, that is where the
spiral of addiction began, right?
'cause that is when I started feeling
bad about myself and started using
the field different before I didn't.
Even that didn't even dawn on me and Tamia
attic was like that person, you know,
that was houseless in the streets, right?
And doing whatever they were doing?
And so, in like I was like, yeah, I'm not.
That's not me, but little did I know, right?
And so I wound up actually beating that
case because I had the finances and stuff
to be able to afford a lawyer and everything.
But I was I was off on the spiral and my
glass house then collapsed and it was.
It took me about nine years before I
finally ended up in federal prison in 2006.
I did have a couple years of clean time.
But I didn't really do that real deep inner
work that it takes to really recover right?
And so when life got a little
bit rocky for me, I went back.
I told myself I'm gonna go
back to doing what I do best,
but I didn't go back to selling weed.
I went to selling harder drugs and
so I was convicted with possession
with intent of methamphetamine,
methamphetamine in in federal court.
And so I ended up getting
citizens 221 months.
That was in 2006 and again when I got there,
I didn't.
I didn't even have a GD right and so
I had this particular federal prison
suffered in the high desert in Arizona.
They had a couple of things going on there.
They had a prison education program
with the College in their community,
Eastern Arizona College,
and they had prison industries, right?
And so one of my goals was to
make enough money while in prison,
not to have to be a burden on anybody.
And then to get on the weight
pile and get into shape.
That was really what I wanted to do.
But to get a better pay grade
in that prison industry job,
I had to get my GD.
And so I did that work got my GD and my
GD instructor instructor Miss Henderson.
Now I'll never forget her name.
She's pivotal in my story.
Got my scores called me to her office and
said Jackson your scores are really high.
You should think about doing
the college program that we have
and I told her Miss Henderson,
I'm not here for that.
I'm here to get on this weight
pile and get this money.
Right,
but Miss Henderson if she was not patience.
He was persistent and I liked Miss
Anderson so it didn't really bother me.
Kept putting me on the call out to come
to her office to talk to me about college,
right?
And so she talked me into taking a couple
of pre Recs. So I took cultural
anthropology and counseling course and
it was the real classroom environment
on the yard that instructors came from
the college and taught in the classroom.
And for the first time since grade school.
I loved school and I found out
that I was kind of smart.
I 4.0 and did really well,
but I wasn't ready for success yet because
I still had all of these other emotional
problems and things like that, right?
So I was really angry when I got
to prison and so nobody could
really say anything to me.
I would just take off on people, right?
And so that ended up getting me a
disciplinary transfer to Victorville, CA.
Over there to the medium to disciplinary
yard where you know they didn't have much
as far as education going on for you,
and it was the chaos of prison, right?
California prisons at that which you know,
even this from what I understand in
California, is pretty pretty easy.
But you had the gangs,
the riots and and all the racial
politics that lead to the violence
and stuff that what happened there.
But it was in that chaos in the midst of it.
Then I realized that if I didn't figure
it out that I was going to die in prison,
whether it meant me taking somebody's
life and not ever going home or
having my life taken right because
I was back in the in the hole and
the hearing officer that was over my
hearing for a fight told me he said
Mr Jackson we got another stop for
you across the street at that USP
and over there all bets are off you.
Pretty much you know,
it becomes all the knives and.
All the fist fighting and stuff is off,
so that's when I realized I had to do
some work and so my first thing that
I had to do was get humble right and
stop being so sensitive 'cause what I
realized as I was just sensitive right?
And letting people control me and
push me off my square, right?
And they knew that too.
They say oh JJ will give you lung, right?
They knew that was my ammo.
Just push his buttons right and so
anyway and then so I did that work right?
And then the next for me was.
Acceptance of responsibility right?
I had to accept the responsibility
for my choices and decisions so
that I would no longer be mad at
everybody in the world, right?
And I could only be mad at myself and I did
that and I want to qualify that with this.
Wow,
we I had to accept responsibility for my
decisions and choices and everything.
Black and brown and poor white folks
have a different set of decissions
than those with more privilege.
I just want to say that throw that out there,
it's the truth, right?
Mass incarceration has less to do
with crime than it does social economics,
right? So, anyway? So I did that.
The next thing was forgiveness for
myself and for other people, right?
So that I could learn to love myself again.
Right, and so I did that work in doing
that work, and that healing that
came from that made me be able to
be successful once I got out right.
And I do want to say the number
one key to my success has been
recovery and staying clean, right?
That's the number one that that has
to be the number one thing because
without that for me all the other
stuff could go away real quick and
so I just want to say that too.
And so when I got out right,
I knew I wanted to go to college
from the the seeds were planted very
early in my sentence and everything.
And so I got out and I was in the
halfway house in downtown Seattle.
The federal halfway house close to
1211 E Alder, where the youth jail is.
And if anybody knows that area and so anyway,
my cousin is a edgecator at the
goodwill training and Education Center,
which is just down the street from
the halfway house.
And he called me up and he said,
hey yo,
'cause you should come down here and
check out some of these classes we got right.
And so I got down there an I seen a
class called college 101 and basically
what that was is what I do today.
College navigation, right?
And so they help me do the fasfa
they help me pick out a school.
They help me you know register
for classes they even paid for my
first quarter of college 'cause I
was late on my financial aid.
And they gave me a scholarship to
buy a laptop, so they're another.
Is her organization that was really
helpful in my transition right and so?
I start, I got registered at
Highline Community College in
their personal fitness trainer.
AA of applied Science AAS
program right and so.
So I started going to school.
I was mostly in the gym at that time.
I worked at the Home Depot,
which by the way was the first time I
held a job for a year straight and when I
left I actually left on good terms, right?
For the first time in my life, right?
And so anyway,
I just and so that was what
I did for my first year.
It was in my second year coming
up on summer quarter that I wanted
to keep the momentum going.
I felt like if I don't keep
the momentum going,
I might slip into some BS or something,
right?
And so I was looking at a summer
funding and I was in a meeting with a
financial aid counselor named Robin Ricains.
Another person I will not
forget her name because she is.
The pivotal again in where I am today
and she and so one thing about me you're is.
I don't live in shame and guilt
and I talk about being formally
incarcerated and I did that from
the time I got out and everything.
And for me it became a way to kind
of filter out the people that are
going to judge me for my conviction
and not what I'm doing today,
right?
And so I LED with that with Robin and she's
like JJ you should be in student government.
Or I mean student leadership, right?
And I was like what I'm kind of old
and they're kind of square over there,
right?
But it wasn't that I didn't want to
be in community with square people.
It was that I didn't think I would fit in.
But to make a Long story short,
I went for it.
I got hired.
My first job was in the Intercultural
Center and that community of student
leadership and the staff that that
advised them hugged me in right.
They hugged me in and I could be transparent.
And what that helped me to do was
exercise our internal convict
right and make that paradigm
swing to student and scholar.
It was very helpful for me to do that,
because you know,
I had that chip on my shoulder
a little bit right?
And so that was my first year and
then I started learning about
other marginalized people and all
this 'cause my my lens was very
narrow from that of a black man
right around social justice, right?
And so I started learning all this
stuff and it was fascinating to me.
And so I decided to go ahead and
extend for another year in Community
College to get my general AA.
And I took a sociology 101 political,
political, science,
even an environmental science course,
and then my my trajectory started to
change right? And I gotta throw this in.
I also ran for student body
President at Highline and
was elected on a platform where I
talked about being the voice for
the most marginalized students and
formerly incarcerated students was
one of those populations, right?
And so everybody knew there was
no wasn't no joke, you know.
No. Anyway misunderstandings,
that's what and so.
I after studying some of the other sciences
and getting into sociology and all that,
I became fascinated right?
'cause I started to understand
my experience with racism,
poverty and even mass incarceration, right?
And so I had the opportunity to go to WSU
and study in their kinesiology program
and do a minor and straight coaching,
an inter with Division One athletes.
What a dream, right?
That's like.
Awesome,
but then I looked at Evergreen's catalog,
right?
And I've seen this program called
Political Economy and social movements
and I read the description and I was
intrigued and so I went to Evergreen,
right?
And.
Part of what brought me to
this work right was the student
leadership stuff I did at Highline.
I started working on legislation so
postsecondary education for inmates.
I was the face of that for Highline College,
which brought me into a network of
these education reentry navigators.
Of these people at the State
Board of Community and Technical
Colleges in the legislative work
they were all doing right.
I was invited to the capital to
give a speech on the tundra.
I was invited to tell my story.
In Committee on that bill,
I was invited to the statewide
Symposium where I met staff and faculty
from Highline an we got together to
bring a reentry program to that school,
which is reentry education
transition pathways.
Today they hire me in the summer that
I was transferring I had one more
class I had to finish up part time to
build the framework for that program
up there and then I transferred to
Evergreen came to Evergreen,
me and another former incarcerated student,
Catalina Landa.
We formed the justice involved student group.
We notice that there was a lot
of people on our campus that
were doing work around mass
incarceration and criminal justice,
but nobody was working together.
They were all siloed and were like
well what if we created a coalition.
So we created the Evergreen
Education Coalition for justice
involved students and brought
everybody out of their silos.
And one of the things that we ask for
as a as a coalition was for a reentry
education navigator because I had
had that experience with our knew.
What that was,
I knew how how important it was
for our formerly incarcerated
students to have that support right.
And so we did.
We got it.
We got the contract, and in June of
2018 we got that and then winter.
We didn't have a navigator.
Were like where's our navigator, right?
'cause I didn't do it for me.
Right and what we found out is
that the college had no clue and
people didn't even really have the
will write it landed in
academic and career visor.
The director at that time,
she just didn't have the
capacity to even deal with it,
so I said I'll do it and they hired me
part time as a student and I graduated
in 2019 and I've been a full time
staff member and built this program.
Reentry scholars, Student Support Program,
and just done a bunch of work on our campus.
And right now one of the things we
are working on is to bring evergreens,
bachelors degrees to our neighboring prisons,
because Evergreen is uniquely located
within an hour of six prisons,
three men's two women's,
the two women's in our state,
an one youth detention center in Green Hill,
right? So geographically right?
The opportunity for those students
3134 incarcerated students within a.
Power of Evergreen is huge, right?
And it's also huge for the college and so.
Yeah, that's a lot and I was trying to just
get through that without as many bumps,
but that's that's how that's what brought me
to this work and what keeps me at this work.
When this stuff 'cause it is tiring, right?
This stuff is tiring because I'm I'm
fighting institutions with the DLC.
I'm fighting my own institution, community.
You know, a lot of stuff,
right?
Just educating and and dealing
with a lot of discrimination and
biases and stigmas and everything.
But it's the students.
That's who keeps me coming back.
And the my favorite population
is those students in the GD class
when I go into the prison,
I gotta go back into prisons today.
What right?
Imagine that I'm like I I got a yellow
yellow badge for the DLC up here,
right?
And so I love going into the GD class
'cause those are the most skeptical students.
And when I walk in there looking at me like,
oh, who's this dude and I remember being
that guy like very sceptical right?
And then when I identify as a forming
cursor to college graduate they set up.
They look at me,
eyes,
open ears open and they start asking
questions right?
And by the end of that I always got a group.
Of people around me asking you
questions and that is what really
energizes me every time.
Thank you.
Thank you, I already feeling inspired.
I'm so excited about hearing each
of your stories. Why don't we
pass the baton on to Miss Burton?
Or if you're ready.
OK. Hi, uh, that was actually fascinating,
Mr Jackson. It takes a, you know we
get here sometime through a really
jagged up and down course, you know so.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
So, uhm. What brought me to this
path was just a lot of hardship,
trauma and just adverse experiences.
For those of you who read the book,
you kind of read through it
then in the ultimate.
A crash of my emotions with losing a son.
Uh, and then that wow me into prison and
being in prison over and over again.
I felt like this this this kind of
hopeless and useless sense of self
that I was trapped in this cycle
and also in a cycle of addiction.
But one day October 4th of 1997,
I found a place that actually
offered me help.
Offered me a level of compassion,
support and resources and there I
was able to begin to rebuild my life
and begin to think about the course,
the experiences.
Are the difficulties that I had
faced for many many many years.
What I also discovered is that in that
community where I found that help.
Our drug addiction.
Was was was what was addressed differently.
You know, instead of going to prison or jail,
people were refer to treatment or given
a court card, are giving community
service are diverted to to to to
some treatment program and I got to
thinking why did that happen for me.
You know I could've used a piece of
paper that directed me to a place
where people like me where we.
Covering instead of handcuffs and
chains and labor exploited and.
Treated inhumanely,
and so I started comparing what
it happened in my lifetime versus
what was happening at that time.
Wow, well, I was just so so grateful.
So grateful to receive those services.
But I couldn't understand why they
had been offered before 20 years
of cycling in and out of prisons.
You know,
medicating my grief and loss of a son.
We had alcohol and illegal drugs and
those drugs sending me to prison so.
Oh wow,
so I did a lot of critical thinking about it.
And at that, and then at some point,
I realized I couldn't take back
the years of pain and suffering.
That I had spent going in and out of prison,
but I could stop another woman
if she had a safe place to go.
And I created a new way of life.
And then I watched children.
Being being.
Separated and lost their moms because
their moms didn't have the finances.
To actually do that to afford a home
for them. And so then I I opened
a home for women with children.
And and you know this family separation.
Has been happening since black
people came to this country.
And it continues under the guise
of Child Protective Services.
And it's a really, really.
Huge problem in our country today.
So. I couldn't bring my KK back,
but I could help another woman to
get her child back and we begin to
provide re-entry services not only
for women but for women and their.
And their children. Uhm?
You know?
What sustains me?
I guess there are two things, one is.
The mother's love for her child
because through recovery.
I learned about. You know,
I forgiveness and letting go Anne.
You know, I also learned that there was
this this love that I had that had no place
to land because my son was what was gone.
And usually you connect it with something
that's moving and living and alive.
And so the love for my son,
I put into the work that I do.
Oh, it's you know it's the love for you
know a mothers love for their child.
I guess you could call it.
And then the other thing that
sustains me is community.
Having community and are connected to
the sense of purpose and well being.
And belonging.
You know I have a place that I belong to.
A commitment that belongs to me and the
community that is connected to all of that.
It is rewarding.
It is fulfilling.
It is energizing. So those are,
you know that's what brought me here.
A lot of pain and suffering.
But then the springboard our recovery.
Springboard.
Of a purpose, the springboard of dignity.
And usefulness that I found
through the rooms, you know,
Alcoholics Anonymous cocaine, anonymous.
You know, it doesn't matter.
That might not have this program.
I relate to them all so.
Alright, so that's my.
Response to your question then.
Thank you so much.
Miss Burton.
Let's pass on to Joanne if I could
ask each of the panelists to tell me.
If you prefer Firstname last name,
just direct message me and I will
refer to that way going forward.
Alright, good afternoon everybody.
I'm really, really grateful to be here.
JJ and Susan. Thank you so much for
just sharing that to get started.
I'm just so grateful to be in a
space with other folks that some
experience that resonate for me so.
So Joe Conniff currently serve
as a certified peer counselor,
recovery coach and Resource case manager
with King County Drug Diversion court.
Also, an author recently published a book,
and I teach Mindfulness as well and.
But a little bit about kind of
arriving to this place where I'm at,
because I'm also a graduate of
the same drug diversion court
that I now employed with is.
I grew up in western Massachusetts.
I was a teenager and the mid to late 90s
and very white middle class suburban,
fairly small town and during that
time was the prescription opioid.
Epidemic was really taking flight
and my mother had struggled with
back pain from an accident from years
before I was born and so she was one
of those people around 1996 I started
receiving these very high milligram.
Prescription opioids like Oxycontin and
anything else around that time and so
a lot of my upbringing was the witnessing.
The physical pain,
but also my mom experienced psychological
trauma and abuse in her younger life.
And so I saw a lot of.
Internal dilemmas met with
external solutions,
and I had a father who worked for a
organized crime organization under
the umbrella of things that they did.
And so you know,
emotions and things either weren't
talked about or they were medicated and.
You know,
on the surface it seemed like home life was.
You know,
pretty good for me compared to a lot
of the people that I grew up with,
having both my parents together.
But what I came to realize as I
started to develop into high school
and social circles and things as
I really I didn't learn how to
deal with emotions and so I ended
up developing my own unskillful
relationships with alcohol and cocaine.
After you know variety of.
Social betrayals and things around 1999,
two thousand and my relationship with
substances and it just changed overnight.
I started,
you know,
finding drugs and alcohol did things for
me that I didn't know how to do for myself.
That my caretaker needs weren't
being met with.
And so much of that was just written off on
man is just really something wrong with me.
And so I found myself joining the
US Navy course took all of my drug
use and everything with me and
it was about 11 months before my.
Enlistment was up in 2005.
Was post 911 vet and I ended up tanking
that career due to my drug use.
I'd just you know,
no matter where I went there I was and so.
I found myself back in Massachusetts with,
you know,
the same set of problems and
doors continuing to close.
And relationships ending.
You know I had just.
Things continuously getting worse.
I may not be able to.
You know,
it's like I just need to figure
out how to control my use better.
That's what I've got to do.
I'm just not doing this the right way,
and so I found myself moving
around the country catching up with
peoples in the service with and.
You know it managed to avoid involvement
with the Criminal criminal legal system.
You know for quite a long time,
but I found myself eventually.
You know, with a domestic violence case
with my drinking and using in my home.
By the time I landed in Seattle in 2008
and eventually found myself addicted
to heroin and crack cocaine and I'm
experiencing homeless on the streets of
Seattle and down the the downtown 3rd
and Pike Corridor known as the blade.
And Tom.
The police intervention started
when I was about 32 years old.
Never really had any interaction
with the criminal legal system with.
Actually being arrested and I
started finding myself going,
cycling in and out of you know
County Correctional System going
in for a week out for two.
Getting picked up on a warrant.
Go back in for three weeks,
back out for one and my time
eventually got so short that it was
there was a large operation happening
downtown and I was picked up.
With a couple of felony charges
an I was told, OK,
you know this is this is what's on the
table is you're looking at three years.
Or, you know,
you can take this drug diversion
court program.
Take this for.
Take this for a spannen.
So I was kind of just I had went
back out on warrant and was like
let me try this one more time.
My way got picked up and was
given one final chance and it was
I saw somebody else that I knew
from the time that I was using
when I was waiting for that.
That court hearing in which I
figured they were just going to.
Sentence me to prison and I saw
somebody from which I knew from the
streets I knew how they used really,
just enough about that individual
that when I saw him.
In recovery and doing well and he
was participating in this program,
it was just.
It was kind of,
you know,
this coincidence that you know
there's why is this person being
put in front of me at this.
I'm at this crossroads of my
life right now where I'm just
I can't live with drugs.
I can't live without them.
Things are horrible.
I haven't seen my daughter in months and
he said just give this thing a shot.
Check it out.
You know it's an opportunity to
beat your felony cases and you
know for me as as a white male
who hasn't been involved in
the system understanding well.
Ellen,
you know having a label like that
and trying to get into employment
and things and the barriers that
it would present it was just
kind of this multi layers of
just motivation and just seeing
it working in somebody else.
And you know.
So I just remember going into that
courtroom and saying yes I'll,
I'll take this for a spin and.
I was he got to enter into an
in custody treatment program,
died the mailing regional
Justice Center in Canton.
Spent four months in custody there, but.
You know during that time you know
what I really want to pinpoint is
and talk about programs that are
geared towards certain individuals
with either substance use
disorders or mental health crisis.
Define is a veteran,
and so I found these programs
that were coming into the regional
Justice Center that were geared.
You know, one aspect.
It was I was already in this
in custody treatment program,
which is, you know,
geared to be meant to be a therapeutic
community while behind bars,
which I know is very contradictory.
But so there was that and I found
mindfulness and I found yoga while
I was in there for that summer.
And so I finally developed a disability
to sit with in my own skin rather than.
Reaching outwardly for substances,
which is just kind of been my
coping mechanisms for so long.
And I did my four months and was
released to the community and and
was introduced to all these supports
like I had this oversight in this
accountability of this diversion program.
But I got connected to.
Recovery drop in centers like
the Recovery Cafe.
I got connected to people at places
like Cherry Fellowship Hall up in
the Central District of Seattle.
I had a WDVA Washington Department
of Veterans Affairs case manager
and even though I didn't have an
honorable discharge due to my drug use,
fortunately there were programs
geared in this community to being
able to work with veterans even
though their discharge may have
been less than honorable,
which got me connected to services and
support that I had written off based on.
The labels and the stigma and the
shame and the alienation that I
had experienced due to things
around my substance use and just
recent criminal legal involvement
really just kind of figured like,
AH, things are going to be even
more difficult and.
You know,
I found that opportunities actually
availed themselves there were there
were services and agencies in the
community that we're looking for people
like me that have these experiences.
And so, as you know.
Pursuing my yoga,
my meditation and I was participating in
a yoga teacher training yoga behind bars.
Contacted me and said hey we have
a scholarship available for trauma
informed teacher training for,
you know,
for being incarcerated individuals
I'm like so there's actually
people that do this work to focus
on overcoming these barriers.
And I tribute.
A lot of my success it, you know,
my cycle.
Social reintegration in the
community do to people that were
doing this work and many of them.
Individuals that had been system
impacted system involved substance
users and the previous you know
parts of their life or experience
mental health crisis and living
with those challenges.
Navigating recovery and you
know the catch about this is.
You know just how much this
these experiences follow me,
even though I ended up completing
drug diversion court and having
my felony charges dismissed,
I still have not been allowed to go
back into the county facilities and
teach yoga just because I had been there
within the last three or four years.
I said, Nope, you've had two charges,
and even though they're not convictions,
you've been here,
you can't come in and then it just kind of
baffling that in some cases individuals
like myself willing to do that work.
Pavement, her JJ mentioned being able to go
back in like I wanted to do those things.
I was like these.
There's at least the population
of people that I feel like I have
an ability to connect with that
there's some different experiences.
That's what spoke to me early on
was seeing somebody in wanting to
do that work and still not being
able to because just being impacted
her involved in the criminal legal
system at any point.
Just follows to some extent and so.
I was fortunate enough to, you know,
reintegrate with family and.
You know, get back into my daughter's life.
I got tired of seeing her from behind
bars at County Correctional Center and
was committed to this recovery process.
An I stayed close to the programs and
support services that got me to the
point where it was or had graduated.
Drug diversion Court had actually
started a small business in the community
with my partner selling products at
farmers markets and really rebuilding
so much of what I had destroyed.
I had made horrible financial decisions
to support my substance use before ended
up living outdoors that my my name had been.
You know dragged through the mud
on social media and in the local
entrepreneurial scene before I got
into recovery.
And so I really felt this opportunity
to be forthcoming.
Just be out there,
be open about my recovery,
be open about my experience.
That way there was nothing anybody could say.
And so I built a foundation of a business
on that and did that for a couple of years.
But I stayed around drug diversion court
trying to give back trying to be of service.
You know,
sharing my experience with the program.
Willing to sponsor people who
were just coming through.
And.
That one of the the treatment program
managers had mentioned that the
resource specialist role was the
individual that was in that position.
Who was somebody else who had lived
experience who helped connect me to
getting an ID to getting clothing
to connecting to, you know,
short time employment and public health
and medical and dental services.
When I was, you know,
coming out of custody that the
treatment program manager had mentioned
that that position was actually opening up.
And you know,
he said, you know,
maybe maybe you take a look at it.
You've been,
you know you've been sticking
around here with
us and it be nice to have somebody who's
come through this program to you know
that has direct experience with it.
Working with the participants. And you know.
So I looked at it and it was, you know,
there is college experience and these
other things that I didn't yet have.
But yeah, there was a lot of language
about lived experience and I'm like wow,
I actually have all that lived experience.
And so I went for it.
I actually got the position and so
the person who was my substance use
treatment counselor when I was.
Participate in drug diversion court
suddenly became my supervisor and I
had only been out of drug diversion
court six months.
I was not even two years into my recovery
at just coming up on two years and so.
I've been there since in that position
has since evolved into King County
employment and just over a year ago,
but I think one of the things
that really keeps me.
Be coming back and you know,
sustains me in this work.
Is that a lot of times when I'm doing
orientation folks that are just
coming into the program and they're
looking at this opportunity to.
You know,
participate in this potential off ramp from,
you know,
the the mainstream criminal
legal system around substance,
substance use,
and the crimes that are criminalised
around substance use disorders that I
see people that I was out there with.
And I know that that first day when
they come in there and they're about
to hear from all these authoritative
figures and people with you know
they represent this system.
That is, you know,
for many has already traumatized them.
You know, members of the bipod community,
and so on that have had past
experiences with it,
and at least if I can level the playing
field by talking a little bit of you know,
hey, this is,
I know,
a little bit about what it's
like to participate in this.
I know about navigating things
in the community,
that's the thing that keeps
me going every day.
And it's it's actually it's an
honor to be able to do that work,
because get to work with folks directly
about overcoming those barriers
to employment in the community
and helping advocate you know,
supporting their voice and their
choice for their goals in that process
of participating in that program,
but also helping them navigate
the other barriers by really
just supporting whatever pathway
of recovery they choose.
Whether it's 12 step,
it's Buddhist base, it's it's secular,
or, you know,
anything is just being able to
stand in that space with them.
Without having to be in the authoritative
role of compliance in those things,
and it puts me in a really unique position.
That I just I I really.
I I really value and to top it
off is being able to be somebody
who lived experience and and this
program allows me to advocate
for change around language
around how we engage in trauma informed
services with this population and
try to become more of a solution then
this extension of the criminal legal
system has been in the past and so
trying to be part of positive changes,
you know, move away from criminalizing
nature of substance use,
disorder and mental illness.
So again. Really, truly grateful
to be here today with everybody.
Thank you.
Thank you, I love the common
themes of the opportunities and
the role of being a service,
so I am just loving all of your stories and
I look forward to hearing from Robert next.
Yes, good afternoon. Thank you Devin.
Thank you, Joe. Thank you JJ.
Thank you, Susan. Uhm?
My name is Robert.
I'm formerly incarcerated individual.
I'm an attic.
I am the son of immigrant
parents from Central America,
El Salvador and I had a pretty decent
childhood and then I joined the military.
I joined the army.
I had no idea what I was doing.
So one thing led to another.
I ended up serving with the 82nd
Airborne Division as an airborne Ranger,
an elite infantry unit.
I felt really good about myself.
I've been deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan.
And these were great I remember.
Calling my mom from jump
school one day and I said,
hey mom, I wanna quit.
She's like no you're not gonna quit
'cause people from El Salvador don't quit.
We just keep pushing.
I said alright so I'm gonna try this right?
I was really scared about you know
the whole idea of jumping out of
airplanes but I got used to it I I
could say that I'm still not 100%
acclimated even after 300 jumps right?
But it's just a natural but anyways.
My last deployment,
Afghanistan I was wanted in combat.
I came home to give me a
Purple Heart and it said he go.
Robert Go home now and without a plan.
And I came home with a little bit of money.
I used it all up, drinking,
bar, hopping,
partying,
whatever right so soon that money was
gone and my friends were gone and I
was wrapped up in addiction and just
started like just the downfall was horrible.
Just with you know,
from losing my cell phone.
No drivers license,
no card, no home.
My family would walk the other way
'cause I they knew I was going to
hit him up for a you got 5 bucks.
Like you know, just really,
really horrible.
And I started roaming the streets,
talking to myself as I walked every step,
cold hands in my pockets,
started committing crimes.
And one thing led to another.
I started getting arrested for
petty stuff and eventually that
landed me in a courtroom in Compton,
CA,
where the judge said I to serve my country.
Robert and I did not come home
and destroy the community the
way that you are destroying it.
For that reason,
you know we're going to give you 3 years.
I remember standing in that courtroom
and say like what happened?
I just went from hero to zero
in a quick second.
I felt really good about myself here.
I am facing three years which I was sentence.
But actually that was the best
thing that ever happened to me,
because since I came back
home from from the war,
I had not been sober more than past 12 hours,
right? And that's because I was too drunk
to asleep to drink or use, or whatever.
You know, whatever I could get my hands on.
So I started to realize that this was a
wake up call for Robert going to going to,
you know, do my three years.
I started thinking about my
life and started realizing that.
Potential that I have as a human being
'cause I am a humanitarian I have I.
I like to believe that I have a good heart
and when I got out the first thing I did
was I need to go get help from my addiction.
So I went to the VA hospital and they
they told me Robert it's Friday night he
showed up at 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon.
There's no beds.
Robert come back on Monday I said no,
I leave. You know I'm gonna sit
right here until something opens up.
I I'm done, I'm tired of being cold,
hungry people looking at me like I'm some,
you know, worthless trash.
So I sat there in about an hour
and a half later comes the nurse.
She's like Mr tease something opened
up for you as I guess I'm not going.
I'm not going to leave here until.
Excuse my language until you **** me, right?
'cause I feel that a lot of my trauma was
from the war and I really wanted to feel
good about myself so I stayed there right?
So I stayed and I did the 18 month program.
And while I was doing my sobriety program,
it's an impatient at the VA.
You can't go anywhere I ask for permission
to enroll in a Community College.
They laughed at me.
They said if you go to school,
you're gonna, you know,
get overwhelmed to go back to drinking.
I said, let me just go one time,
let me just go one semester,
man, I promise say OK.
Rob with it, we're gonna let you go.
But you gotta come back,
got curfews in all this?
So I followed the rules and the
semester was over and I walked into
my counselors office on like hey,
I got a 4.0.
So can I go to school again next semester?
He's like I can't believe it.
Robert Aerospace program got 4.0.
You were just a homeless person
couple weeks ago.
I said well come on,
let me go to school again.
You let me go to school and I
completed my sobriety program.
And then I I I earned my degree in aerospace.
Graduated summa *** laude.
Transferred to account state.
Got my bachelors degree in liberal study.
Transferred to Cal State Long Beach
where I'm doing my masters degree.
I intend to apply for my doctorate
degree next year and bottom line is
through the support of my community
project rebound really embraced me
and said hey Robert yeah you you
little dusty and you yeah you're
a little rough around the edges
but we're gonna make it better
man so I really I'm.
I'm really thankful for project rebound.
Kelsey Delay gave me a home,
they employed me, they made me who I
am today and I appreciate that right,
but the value of my story is.
The return on the investment right
on on what happens when you invest in
marginalized individuals like myself, right?
It's huge. Yes, we through education
and there's better communities,
safer communities, recidivism rates drop.
But guess what?
I feel good about myself today.
I do, I don't harm anyone I don't do.
I don't commit any crimes.
I help others.
That's what keeps me focused and going.
What sustains me and makes me really
happy are those phone calls from
my soon as he got into grad school.
Robert, I appreciate your help man,
that to me that's better than money
'cause I know that I was part of
that journey of that individual's
life and being able to,
you know, to watch them grow so.
I'm not. I'm no one special.
My story is not special whatsoever.
There's many of people.
There's many Roberts out there.
There's many women that are
marginalized people of color, right?
All we need is a fair chance.
One thing about formerly incarcerated
students and this is how I'm gonna
close is that you open the door this
much and will come in 'cause we
already screwed up too many times.
This is my last chance.
I better make the best of it right?
So that's why we bring this level
of maturity to the classroom.
There really puts us ahead of the bulky.
It's our street smarts is our determination
when we were in when we were incarcerated.
They told us, you know when to eat.
What what you know?
Exactly what to do?
What where do they even sit?
You come to the classroom,
they give you a syllabus tells you when
your papers do, how to structure it.
When the exam is, we follow the rules.
So it is a pleasure to be here.
Thank you all for sharing and
I'm gonna give it back to Devin.
Thank you so I want to encourage
folks participating to offer
us some questions as well.
There's been some great words of
support in the chat that you can
also use the Q&A to offer questions.
I'm also going to allow people
to unmute themselves as I'd like
to ask their own questions.
You can submit questions anonymously
if it is of a sensitive nature that
you don't want to be identified
with lots of options for sharing.
Questions.
To get us rolling though, I have a couple.
I'll I'll introduce myself.
So first,
what does your program do to help
with this problem and what support
can you offer versus what supports
are still needed and I will leave
all of these questions unless there's
some directed to specific panelist
individually to each of you to
decide if you would like to answer
so you can either raise your hand or
jump in if you would like to answer about.
What your program specifically does
and is still needed as far as support.
So a new way of life reentry Project
provides. A pretty broad array
of services from. Uh, housing?
Family reunification.
We have job services.
We support people to go back into school.
We have some leadership development courses
that run along every year. We also.
Support people and give them the opportunity
to organize with all of us or none.
We do. Civic engagement.
We kind of have a holistic approach
to offering people a ways to get back
and connected with the community.
One of the things that we also
do is we recognize the trauma.
I am the harm that people exiting
prisons and jails have have experience,
so we offer space for healing and
we offer therapy sessions with the
women that come into our homes.
So those are those are some of the the main.
Things that we offer to people and we also.
Allow them to understand how
important their lives are.
Thank you, would anyone else like to?
Offer an answer to that sure thing.
Yeah, thank you Kelsey.
Tell a project rebound.
We focus supporting our students financially,
but also we create a space.
So constantly I'm actually the founder
of Silver Scholars in Southern
California and now sober scholars.
Is that Kelsey Fullerton Council
delay is coming in Cal State,
Long Beach, Cypress College, Santa Ana
College and also we are starting us.
Sober scholars at Mount SAC.
This space is a space where
students can experience sobriety
and also talk about real issues.
It's a weekly meeting.
Everyone's welcome.
We hold no.
It's it's non religious.
It's not judgmental,
it's just a safe space and through
kovit this has been instrumental in
us keeping our students specially
people like me that isolation is
in the invite to relapse right?
So having this?
This weekly meeting is 45 minutes.
Sometimes we laugh, sometimes we cry,
sometimes we just.
You know,
we just talk about things
that are really on our mind.
There's not a structure and
it's just a circle.
We do a little bit of meditation
to five quick minute meditation.
But bottom line is building community
Cal State LA Project Rebound has
identified that by empowering
individuals and by providing this space,
individuals find their community and filled,
embraced and.
Also support it so.
My phones,
you know 10:00 o'clock at night.
11:00 o'clock at night I'll get a
phone call here Rob, you know what?
I'm going down that rabbit
hole man and you know,
I just have a simple conversation bro,
you got this you know what it's like?
I'm overwhelmed.
I don't know what to do.
I got this I got that I'm like let's write
a list let's do a checklist for tomorrow,
right?
Let's let's just start knocking out
little things that you need to do
so you don't feel overwhelmed and
just simple words right for us it
seems like very simple but providing
that that connection is so crucial.
So I'm very,
very proud of project rebound
Cassinelli because it provides
that for the students.
And is it really provided
that platform for us to grow
and support each other?
Thank you, we've had a couple
of questions come into the Q&A.
One is a comment which is from Sharon
Larson saying I would like to thank all
the panelists for speaking your truth
and telling your stories grateful.
I attended this Doom event to
learn from all of you and then
a question for all panelists.
What was the most surprising or challenging
thing you experienced as a student?
When you re entered the education system?
I got you, I got this one right so for
me I was for most of my college career.
I was on cruise control right?
And the most difficult,
difficult things that I experienced
was actually in student leadership and
around anti racism organizing and so
doing some of that as the student body
president at Highline College and.
Also, as a student government
representative at Evergreen.
Those were the things that actually
tapped me out where I actually
had to take some time off, right?
And what I learned about that kind of
work is that our social justice heroes,
the people that do that kind of work
all of their life are incredible.
Incredible,
because that is really hard work that
can take you out and I want to say I
experience. Some of the same kind of.
Discrimination and.
I wanna say.
Biases and stigmas that people hold
right as a professional right,
and it is tiring,
but I must admit, while it well,
I keep swinging and it gets hard.
Those anti racism organizing
moments as a student leader.
Those those really.
We're like some gut punches and stuff.
So yeah.
Would anyone else like to share about
surprising or challenging things as
a student re entering the education?
So I would like to share that.
I've been to Ranger School.
I've been to airborne school.
I've been to War Two different countries.
My DRS were like, which is deployment ready.
Force was like I come home for two
or three weeks and I gotta go back.
I've lived all that but the first two
weeks of my higher education journey
where the hardest thing I ever live.
The computer work.
The computer wouldn't do
what I asked you to do.
I was so frustrated I wanted to punch
my the monitor and I just felt useless.
I did. They said come sign this
convert this PDF to a Word document.
I was like what are you talking about?
I have no clue so.
The reason why I share this is because
the first two weeks, three weeks.
Of re entry of the students reentry
academic Journey are the most crucial.
We need to be there when they say hey I
don't know how to submit my assignment.
Some of us might get a little
frustrated be like, oh come on dude,
you're in higher Ed, right?
But take the time and remember this
that that you taking those 510 minutes
is gonna change that person's life.
Walked him through that process and then
asked him, can you do it now I should.
I just showed you can you?
Can you do it if they say I
wasn't paying attention?
Don't get frustrated.
Do it one more time for them.
OK really, that is crucial,
you just you just equip that individual by
showing him how to submit an assignment.
They when they're done
they won't tell you this,
but we feel empowered when like, hey,
I was able to do this right the next day.
And when they graduate,
they'll stop by your office
and they say thank you.
Thank you so much because that first
two weeks you were there for me.
Can I piggyback on that?
Just a little bit for you all that are
creating reentry programs at Green River.
What Robert is talking about is
super crucial because depending on
a person's length, length of time
or their history with technology,
people come out a lot of times when I call
technically challenged and that was me.
But I had played with the computers a
little bit right and then I had great
support from the computer center.
At Highline right but.
Incarcerated students are not getting
a lot of time on computer like I took a
computer word class while I was incarcerated.
But once the class is over,
I never touched the computer again.
Stuff for the little text messaging
computer in the unit, right?
And so this this is a very important thing.
So my suggestion is that you talk to
the students about their technology,
technological experience,
but also create workshops and stuff.
To help them understand at least
the basics of these platforms,
right canvas, right canvas.
If you don't know what you're doing right,
can be super overwhelming and difficult,
so these are these are very
important things to understand.
in Washington state,
we're getting a little bit better.
There's legislation that passed that's
going to open up to more Internet
type stuff where students will be
able to do online classes and stuff,
and so people will be coming out
a little better prepared.
And stuff, but like it. WCW, right?
I went into their computer lab there and
most almost all the computers didn't work.
Right,
and so just the best.
That kind of stuff that you all should be
aware of when working with this population.
Can I say one more thing
before I forget again? Sandra?
So I'm sorry Susan Burton's a new
way of life was really instrumental.
When I expunged my record,
I really thought that that
was like very far from from.
Attainable to me,
and her organization really made it like,
really empowered me.
Those were, like the first steps
that I was taking towards,
you know, recovery, reentry,
and my academic journey and
Susan Burton's program really was
instrumental in empowering me.
So I just wanted to say 'cause I have not
said thank you for that for those tremendous.
Programs that you provide Susan
for our community.
Thank you so much for what you do.
Yeah, you're welcome.
You know the thing that you
brought up that's really,
really was really crucial is
how intimidated people are.
They want to do.
They want to learn, but they're scared.
And once someone enters,
I know when I went back to school,
I went to Southwest College and I
was scared to go back on comp campus.
But I knew I need it.
I knew there was a need for me
to get more education if I was
gonna be successful as a director
of a new way of life.
So I went back and and the love
of learning just came alive.
And so we you know,
support people and ourselves
to tap into that.
And you know,
navigating an expungement and
going back into a court is really,
really intimidating.
Our folks,
so we have a few attorneys on staff
that walk people all the way through court.
They don't just fill out the expungement
certificate and say go file it.
We become the attorney of record.
And we walked him through what that
paper worked entirely through the court
process until the expungement is granted.
If we have to show up in court,
will show up in court if
we have to argue for that.
Expungement will argue for that expungement,
but we want to support
people to get beyond the.
The that the.
Conviction and beyond that discrimination
that is connected to the convict conviction,
an expungement,
or some of the things we can do right now.
But you know,
we're fighting,
and I'm talking with the Biden
administration now about,
you know the collateral consequences
of a criminal conviction because
they it continues to come up and.
You know my stomach flips when I
have to fill out a application and I
know there's gonna be a background check.
My stomach still flips and just.
Just before the pandemic.
I, I feel tired of application for travel.
Oh, to get up.
Uh,
to be able to get the international
flying tasks.
I forget sometimes what it's called,
I think because it hurts me
so much that I was denied.
But you know, we're going to keep getting up.
So where we were talking about that
and I took it to the administration.
This is what still happens to people so.
But education does not discriminate.
We can all learn. And hold and hold
that that that that that experience
in that value in that knowledge.
Thank you and I should mention I welcome
panelists at raised questions as well.
It doesn't have to be just attendees.
We have an anonymous attendee question
of how important are the people
that we interact with as far as
influencing our journey to success.
I think we've heard some examples,
but if anyone would like
to add an example to.
The importance of those we interact with.
I think your environment and your
influences are super important. Uhm?
You know in recovery we say people,
places and things are what we need to,
you know, redefine in our lives
and you know positive, uplifting
resource fo influences is what I want.
And you know what?
What I I wanted my my my life.
You know in in, in my environment.
You know we have a saying.
Also in recovery is that you know.
You know, if you hang out at the barbershop,
you're gonna eventually get a haircut.
An I guess for some folks that Pandemic,
that's a good thing to go.
Get a haircut, but we're not
talking about a haircut haircut.
So if I environment is just super super
important that people you engage with,
the people you interact with
is super super important.
I'd like I'd like to add that this is
more for the students on the call.
Is that not everyone is ready to
have us in the room and that's OK.
You need to identify who's on your
team and also embrace your identity.
'cause would I be here if I didn't
have the identities that I have?
If I wasn't an addict, a homeless person,
you know all this trauma?
Would I be here today? Probably not.
There's a lot of resources
out there for you all.
You just gotta knock on the
door and someone will answer.
Identify on campus. Who's on your team.
And volunteer and stick around
and show up because I didn't.
I did not plan. To be a full time
outreach coordinator for Cal State Lai.
Did not plan that.
It happened 'cause I showed up.
It happened 'cause I was determined
and this can happen to all of us.
You show up and things happen.
Find your find your team on campus
because they're they're there.
You just have to identify.
And when someone turns you away, whatever,
just brush it off your shoulders.
Keep moving. It's no big deal, right?
We've been through, Yep, we've been through.
We've been through harder stuff, so not
everyone is ready to have us in the room.
And that's OK because, well,
where we're going is where we're going.
We're going to be earning
Masters degree PHD's.
Keep pushing,
keep grinding 'cause you got this.
I wanted to add something to with,
you know,
my experience and what I see too with the.
With the participants in my program
around substance use disorder,
is this this community component in this
supports is often like even in my direct
experiences like I go into custody,
I come back out and I found myself
back up on the block because that
was the only community I had.
It was so hard to leave behind what
I knew even though I knew there was
aspects of it that were harmful.
And having you know negative
consequences on my life.
It was better than no community at all
when I had no family when I had nobody
else would pick up the phone for me.
And So what I see a lot of times with
some of the participants in the Drug
court program is as they start to.
Engage in treatment and they're starting
to pursue education or employment and
they're having a hard time separating.
From these other individuals is,
it's like really looking at it from this.
This idea of like you know well already
know what's what's wrong with it,
but what's right about it?
Like what is it doing for these folks
that the community it doesn't exist for
them in these other areas right now too.
And so when I see collegiate recovery
coming to fruition in places,
I see these other acknowledgments of like,
yeah, we've got a space for you because,
you know,
feeling like I didn't fit in and
I was getting into the business
arena is getting into this.
Peer counseling is. It's like I'm still.
This other individual I still have more
time invested in that way of life,
like where is my new community
and what does that look like?
And so again it's Susan hinted to
it too is it's in that the hard.
The barbershop metaphor two as it was,
you know,
one of my counselors told me he's
like the five people you spend the
most time with the people you become.
I look at how I became dependent on
certain substances in my experience
and how it became a business owner.
And, you know, a person as a peer counselors.
I started spending time directly.
With the people that were in the
direction or at the status in which
I wanted to achieve,
but it was not easy to identify it.
It was not easy to do.
It was like took me sitting in these
uncomfortable places and I didn't have
the ability to ask for help and so
really initiating that conversation
and inviting people to events or
structuring events with that space
for those individuals in mind,
I think has been super key to my
success and I see that's a game changer
for the folks in the Drug court
program that are trying to get into.
Education in employment is knowing
that that space exists specifically
to address their site.
Biopsychosocial experience.
Which is you know often other
people you know, normies,
so to speak and look at it.
Like, whoa like can't.
Can Jive with that a little bit,
and so it's it's nice to see
that these things are coming
together in the community more
and more specially and you know,
collegiate recovery as I mentioned.
Thank you, thank you Joe.
So let me take a stab at this one too.
So I just want to say this.
I did 120 well.
I was sentence to 121 months in
federal prison and I talked to you
earlier about that healing and stuff
that I did and I was 36 years old
when I went to prison and everything.
I was tired when I got there.
So I have no qualms with what will
take me right back to prison.
I don't know.
It's not a question for me, I know.
And everything and people, places and things.
Susan is absolutely a part of that right?
And so I don't be going and kicking it
with the homies and stuff like that, right?
I don't go to the bar to hang
out like on a regular.
I might go out to every now and then,
see a show or something,
but that's it.
And I'm not frequenting places
where the chaos is right and so,
but one of the most important things that.
Formally incarcerated people in
general that are trying to stay
clean and not go back to prison.
Relationships partners right?
That is so important for me.
When I got out,
I understood this because of that
chaos of my past relationships
and a lot of that was involved
in my addiction to spiral of the
way I felt about myself right.
And so I told myself and this is
something that I learned in a Na right year.
With yourself right?
And so I had all that healing I did
over that time that I was in prison,
right?
But I also said when I get out
I'm gonna take at least a year to
myself and not try to jump into
no relationships or anything.
And what happened with that
amazing thing that happening is.
The universe put the person that was for
me in my life at the right time, right?
And I met a person who is in
student leadership.
I am now coming up on the six
year anniversary with Rochelle,
and The thing is,
is like I never made it to two years in a
relationship and they were always just chaos,
right?
The thing in this relationship,
like it's so mellow,
like sometimes I don't want to do that.
But it you know what I'm saying,
I mean.
And just like any relationship,
it takes work.
But my point is though,
is a lot of time and we see this
all the time as navigators is
people come out getting these
toxic relationships relationships
from the past and everything,
and they're not alone.
Before they've relapsed there back
in prison and stuff like that.
And so,
just like take some time to yourself and
learned it. That's what
all that time in prison.
I really start to understood who I was,
right? And everything and and
when I was like in my transition,
going to school and stuff and go hard,
there were moments where I had like
these feelings of loneliness, right?
I'm like Dang right?
And I do have to go.
I could go over here to the
bar and he said whatever right
and do something like that and
I would just tell myself well,
you know where that's gonna
take you and so think about all
the positives you got going in
your life and this one negative.
And here's another thing from recovery.
This too shall pass.
Those feelings will pass right?
And you get through it.
And so to me,
that's one of the most super important
things and even family, right?
Like I have a nephew who you know
in the cycle of addiction and prison
and all that right? And he knows.
And Lacey respects us too.
But I know I can't mess with him
when he's running and gunning and
everything I don't mess with him.
I love him from a distance right?
And everything when he comes
to me and says OK Uncle,
I'm ready to get clean whatever.
I'll take him to a meeting but not
support him in that way and everything
so I understand your own bout.
Set your boundaries right
and stick to him recovery.
There's a selfish element to recovery, right?
Because you have to take care of
yourself for your family and loved
ones to benefit from your recovery.
And so it's like trickle down effect, right?
For lack of a better word.
And we don't trickle down economics.
Don't work, but anyway, so you know.
But yeah.
Through you holding onto your
recovery and being selfish about it,
no matter what the people around
you will benefit from it.
You know,
I'd like to also add that shame
and fear and guilt sometimes will
drive you know what we called
the Committee your head telling
you that you're not deserving
or that you're not good enough,
or that you know you have failed too
much or or are you thought of what
failure might be so I would say.
Confront. Confront those dots. Top.
Find community that you can talk
through those thoughts. I Ain.
You know, with no no things,
sometimes we get a little uncomfortable.
Allow yourself to get uncomfortable
and expand. Expand your world.
That's you know.
I can get uncomfortable,
but I just brace up and I just
get into it 'cause I know there's
something amazing.
And you know,
I wanna be a part of the adventure
of my life so I just you know,
walk through and walk past thoughts
that come like that because they still come.
So I just wanted to add that someone
spoke about fear of failure.
I you know, I would fear not trying
more than the failure. Just try.
And see where it takes you.
I'm relating to all of your stories so much
I just want to say that I'm so grateful
to people contributing questions and
acknowledge that we may not get to them all,
but we will get through as many as we
can and I'm just really grateful that
we have such an engaged audience today.
The next question we have is that I
know a couple of you mentioned how
financially it was crucial to critical
to helping you get a college education,
and they had advocates in the Financial Aid
Office who are critical to your success.
I work in financial aid for your college,
so I'm curious what insight and advice you
could give myself and my colleagues based
on your experiences navigating that process.
So I would like to.
Say that some of these barriers,
like for example,
the Selective Service requirement,
given individual, was incarcerated.
You know, at the age of 1617 years old.
Of course, this individual never
registered and for them to that's
yet another barrier, right?
Or the letter of non filer for the IRS?
Individuals locked up. He didn't work,
so there's gotta be a easier way, right?
There's gotta be an easier way.
We need to think about this, right?
Because these are barriers.
Formerly incarcerated students,
as I mentioned earlier in the beginning
stages of the journey, we will quit.
Will just be like, hey,
it's just impossible.
But to the students, I can share this.
I took out loans about 20 years
ago and didn't pay them right.
So when I try to go back to
school this time around I had all
kinds of stuff going on right.
Hey, you know, you don't qualify,
you don't qualify kept.
Calling people,
calling people,
and eventually they said there's
a way for you to do this.
You need to just follow these rules,
make three payments or whatever it was.
I can't even remember,
but someone told me like this
is what you gotta do.
And then after the third or fourth
month I qualify for financial
aid so when someone closes the
door go knock on another door.
Just keep asking.
Apply for the scholarships.
When I I, you know I didn't believe in
scholarships as like, yeah, that's distant.
That'll never happen to me.
Well, one of the years I made more money
in scholarships than I did working,
so apply for the scholarships.
They're there for us.
It's money that you know people
that that really do care.
Want to want to share this?
You know this resource with with those also
apply it isn't, you know, doesn't hurt.
And also.
Perseverance.
Alright, so just go at it.
Go at it if you wanna do something
you can do it.
Yeah, there's going to be many obstacles.
Yes, it's very difficult and frustrating.
And if this was easy,
everyone would have degrees.
Right, so just keep at it.
I did put my email in the chat,
reach out to me even if you're
not in Southern California,
you have a question, right?
It's networking. Thank you.
For the for the professionals.
For the financial aid professionals
in the room.
And So what has been really helpful for
me is I have created a relationship
with one of our financial aid staff,
right?
Who is really interested in this work
in supporting formally incarcerated
students and will go out of.
Find solutions right?
So I think Devin as a financial
aid professional, right?
Maybe you're that point person for
your navigator or whoever is going to
be supporting formerly incarcerated
students when they get to your campus,
right?
Because there's all kinds of I'm finding
out through the financial aid person.
There's all kinds of loopholes
and different things that they
can find and supports and services
and write all kinds of stuff.
And so having that contact for me.
Right, and so in our financial aid office,
right? It is hard to get a reply
through the regular channel right?
And so if I didn't have this contact.
So I developed relationships with
different staff in different
departments at our school, right?
Just so I can walk a
student over to the window.
I can make those connections right.
The warm handoff right?
And it is worked out pretty well for
me to develop those relationships
and and you know they're willing
to do workshops and all kinds
of different things for us.
As far you know,
Robert mentioned selective services.
We've had a lot of luck,
so as a statewide community
education navigator,
I have colleagues inside navigators
at all 12 prisons, right?
And so will start working on the
fast foods and Selective Service
stuff before they release, right?
And so it's pretty easy to go
to that website, and you know,
find out what you need to do.
See for some people.
If it's I think it's 26 then they can't.
Oh, file right,
but up to 26 they could still file,
but they can put in an appeal, right?
But in the end it's the financial aid
office that makes that final decision
whether they're going to grant that
student of the college not fast,
but right of the college,
whether they're going to give that
student that financial aid right?
And so that's the kind of stuff
that's happening for me and for
the students I serve at Evergreen,
right through those relationships
and finding those different.
But you know,
even even were even figuring out when
students have unpaid loans and stuff,
how we can start payment plans while
they're still incarcerated, right?
Right now our next thing is we're
open to work on getting like a year of
deferment once their release, right?
Because what happens is a student
might have that payment plan going.
But then you release and you run into
all the chaos that made my happen.
And you might not stick on that plan,
right?
And then if you stop paying,
you have to start all over in
to get back into good insect,
good standing and so wouldn't
it be great right?
If they had a year or something to
make sure that they stabilize and
stuff as they transition and you know.
And so there's all kinds of stuff that
that we can do as a country, right?
As financial aid professionals bringing
these ideas to some of the you know,
the.
National meetings with the Department
of Education and stuff like that right?
And figuring out working with loan
providers and servicers and stuff
like that to figure out the best way
that we can bring equity into the
systems for formerly incarcerated students.
Thank you,
there are a number of comments
in both the chat and the Q&A
of appreciation and support,
so definitely encourage all
the panelists to read those.
The next question from my colleague Benjamin.
I am inspired by your stories.
Thank you for the courage to
speak authentically and bravely.
I want to be sensitive,
extremely cautious and ensure
my question doesn't raise
any triggers or red flags.
I'm curious to know.
What strategies did you have
so you didn't relapse or fall
back into your old ways?
Thank you for that, Benjamin.
I think it was for me.
The whole idea of the whole,
the whole direction,
people, places and things.
That I had to change and I was very,
very careful.
Uh, that I did not want to experience
what I had been experiencing in my life.
And so going into meetings and
looking at the transformation of the
people and believing that that could
happen for me if I did what they did.
So I was very,
very thoughtful and careful about not
about about about doing what I can
humanly do to protect myself and my sobriety.
And asking,
you know God to do the rest.
Asking my higher power to do the
rest and what I found is that.
Working and living and being from
that place attracted all of these
other things to me to support me
along my journey in so many ways.
Add something to this is I really
appreciate this question. I know for me.
When I was in the diversion court,
I was, I found the accountability
of the program very helpful.
I did well in structured environments
at the military and when I was in
custody and things like that and so.
As. I was transitioning out of
the drug court program and was
going to have that oversight lift
that I was no longer providing you
ways and those other things that
I found helpful to my process,
and I was also at the same time I was.
You know, my father was,
I would lose him a month and a half.
You would pass after I graduated
drug diversion court as I did.
This suggestions of some of
the things that I found,
the recovery programs of getting
a service position,
those things to kind of solidify and
anchor me to the room as I made the
transition from the accountability or
other difficult things in my life.
And I also caution that with like not
taking on too much service to again like.
Boundaries are so important.
But I found that to be really helpful
and one of the other things that
attribute to walk through all of the
challenges that I've experienced.
I've probably been through some
of the most difficult things in my
life have happened in my recovery,
not in my addiction.
The loss of people and transitions
and things in relationships.
And you know,
economic well being and things that
have shifted has been a mindfulness practice.
A mindfulness and meditation
practice and it's so much of it
has been that my substance use was.
Trying to get out of this moment anything
but trying to be here and so you know,
really,
cultivating a healthy daily meditation
or yoga practices things that got
me into my body and understand
the internal landscape.
The ability to sit with you know,
like JJ said, twos like this thing was JJ.
This too shall pass is things arise,
things pass, things change,
sometimes they change for the better.
Sometimes they change for the worst
but really getting started in my date
with my recovery practices or the
non negotiables I have in my life.
That's how I've continued coming
up on six years,
and what that does is sets me up for the
best possible day that I can have noted,
like getting out in front of
it by getting myself grounded,
grounded,
and my understanding that like these
are the things that could potentially
get in the way we start off my day.
Setting the pace with that,
and that's been, you know,
that looks a lot of different ways.
Prayer, meditation,
you know,
there's it's position one way in 12
step programs its position another
way and others but some kind of
dedication of arriving here in the
moment because it's difficult.
Life shows up. Mind gets us planning.
Things come up.
We need to get prepared for stuff and
and it pulls us out of being here now.
And it's you know that pulls me into a place
where I want to find relief and that used
to look like substances in those things.
And right now that relief comes from knowing
that things won't stay the way that they are.
And if I let them be,
keep my hands off of my experience, you know,
and let things kind of Verizon pass.
You know I'll survive another day I will live
another day in recovery and those things,
and it's really.
You know one day at a time,
sometimes it's it's one minute at a time,
sometimes less than that,
and that's OK, like being, you know,
be patient with ourselves so.
Yeah, for me right is.
Like I said earlier, I don't have no qualms.
I know exactly if I relapse, where I'm
gonna end up right and I'm gonna end up.
Probably back in a federal prison.
And this time I ain't coming home.
I'm 51 years old they'll career
criminal me and that's pretty much it.
It's gonna be a life sentence so I don't
have to even play with that right?
That's that's just the reality of it, right?
And then you know,
one of the things Joe and I think Susan so.
What I've learned to do today
right is walk through some ****.
To be quite honest with you and what I
know that I did in the past by looking
for relief in drugs and alcohol is I
just took a molehill and turned it
into a mountain and just piled all
this other stuff on top of it and
ended up in prison and everything.
And when I realized it was, it's crazy.
When you have like these epiphanies
and so and so I'm sitting in prison
and I'm talking about like one of.
Bypass fiance and everything and
this was 12 years prior.
At this time, I'm talking to my cell.
You bout this right and I started filling up.
I was becoming more self aware, right?
My blood pressure started coming up.
My skin got right and I
was like activated right?
The trauma that lived inside.
He was activated and I realized I was like.
Damn,
I'm still mad at this person right?
And so and what I realized that if
I would have just walked through
a little bit of pain,
maybe I would have suffered for you know,
a few weeks or a few months,
maybe right,
but I would eventually got to the
other side of that and been like
damn we were tripping right?
And stuff because in the moment
we're going through those things
are intense and everything,
but when we make it through and we
can reflect on him to be like damn,
I was kind of trickling in, right?
And so this too shall pass right walk.
Learn to walk through some **** right.
Don't throw everything away because
one thing isn't going right,
because sometimes we also don't know
what the universe has for us, right?
And why this might be happening in this
strength that is built right within us.
If we just walk through some stuff.
Then there is a couple of questions
in the Q&A that's related.
And one was about not fulfilling
your dreams and your desires.
And the other was about limitations on
what you can do with the criminal history.
And you know, I think that for me.
I think to to not take the gift of a dream.
And pursue it. Wood. Would I?
I think it would Trump being just safe
in my pursuit of just making a living.
Or will I fulfill myself and
in my life in
this lifetime I don't know
if there's another one,
but they say that you might have a few,
but in this life type do I just go for it?
How risky really is it?
Or is it head talk and fear just
blocking me from being all that I can be?
And fulfilling my life.
So one of the reasons that we have attorneys.
It is to challenge those limitations.
What I can do with my life
after I've served my time?
You know what?
How do we smother and smash those
collateral consequences that come
as a result of a conviction?
So if someone really has a desire to be
a nurse and they have a criminal history,
you know yes,
they're gonna be denied by the board.
But you challenge the board,
and that's what we're doing here.
We have legislation in the legislature and
it would be beautiful to see some of the.
Uh, training institutions you know.
Green River.
JJ, where was your school again?
The Evergreen State College.
Evergreen State College to see
those institutions be on board
with challenging the boards that
deny people to pursue their dreams
based on something that could have
happened 1520 years ago when they were
1718 years old and what have you.
So I just want to say that.
You know limiting someone because
of the criminal history we have
to challenge that if that's their
dream to to be.
A doctor, a nurse,
or a loan officer, or a realtor,
or a whatever it is a contractor.
I mean here in California you can get
a contractors license with a criminal record.
Every license is automatically denied.
You were gonna stop that
were challenging that.
I'm so sorry that we have run out of time.
I knew this would be a rich
conversation and I appreciate
each of your experiences and
perspectives and inspiration so much.
I believe all of the panelists
shared their contact information
in the chat at some point,
so please continue the conversation.
Continue connecting with each
other and thank you all for coming.