Good afternoon Green River.
Thank thank you in advance for coming and spending some time
with us here today. If I haven't had the pleasure meeting you, my
name is Dan Ferguson. I am the director of Student Life at
Green River and I'm beyond excited to be introducing this
program today. Today's event is the 1st event of the winter
quarter for the Diversity Educational Series. This event
has been a massive collaboration amongst offices and it's
sponsored by breath their The Office of Diversity Equity
Inclusion. The Green River diversity and equity council.
The green, the Gator activities board. The one book program and
the Green River College Reentry program. The next one book event
is on February 24th from 1:00 to 3:00 and it features the one
book author this year, Miss Susan Burton, and she'll be
giving the talk dreaming of justice and working for freedom.
Additionally, I want to thank you for taking some time
today. I'm sure we're all spending way too much time
paying attention to the national news right now with
all the chaos that's happening in DC and the
impeachment trial, and so just know that we all are
feeling similar thoughts.
Hopefully this is a good use of our next couple hours chatting
with you. Before introducing Hue, we encourage.
All of us to learn about how to bet to be better allies to the
native communities around us. Through educating ourselves and
providing active support. Many of us join today's events from
the ancestral lands of the Coast Salish people sees through force
removal and colonization by the
US government. Our Auburn campus is located on the traditional
land of the Muckleshoot tribe. Those of us joining today from
Seattle and Kent are on native. Duwamish land and those of us in
Tacoma and Puyallup. If you have power are on native Puyallup
land. I'm going to. I'll drop a link in the chat so
you can look up the history of the land that you're on.
If you haven't done so.
Getting on to the business of today, Heberden spent 19 years
in prison for a crime he didn't commit. He was convicted wrongly
of murder, 91 in results released on parole in 2009. He
waited another 10 years to be exonerated. Of of the crime the
Innocence Project, which was founded in 1992, exonerates the
wrongly convicted through DNA testing and works towards
reforming the criminal justice system to prevent future
injustice. Their mission is to free the staggering number of
innocent people who remain
incarcerated. And to bring reform to the system
responsible for their unjust imprisonment imprisonment.
But a little note about the presentation. Hugh is open to
question questions and really enjoys having an interactive
presentation. If you have questions, please use the Q&A
feature that allows you and me as I read him questions to see
the questions and we'll be able to mark him off as they've been
answered. You can also raise your hand if instead of typing
you would like to join the conversation and speak directly
to Hugh. The chat feature is always is open as I see you all
have found out. And we'll try to keep an eye on that for
questions too, but we would really like the questions to
go in the Q&A feature.
That's all for me. I'm excited to hear his story and hope you
are as well. Let's give a huge virtual round of applause and
welcome you. Thank you, thank you so much, Dan. Thank you so
much for the introduction.
Um, you know, it's very interesting. Oh, as we look at
the time that we're in.
It's so important to know that those of us who have spent long
periods of time in prison wrongfully from convicted and
even those who haven't look at the same way that you guys are
seeing the world right now. We've been looking like like
that at the world like that for most of our lives.
This is the second presentation that I've done for the year and
since the year is started it seems to have sorted out with
such a bang, but um.
I you know, I just want to share the things that that have
happened to me and the fights that I endured and the things
that I still go through now to right the wrongs that have been
done that have been done to me.
So my story starts very simple as many other stories. I was a
16 year old sophomore living in the Bronx, NY with my parents.
My mom was a registered nurse. My dad was an independent
contractor. They were immigrants from Jamaica. I was born in the
Bronx in 1972.
Um? On January 3rd, 1989, my mom was starting a two
week vacation from her job. My dad had recently just left
to go visit family back home in Jamaica and it was my
first day back to school after the holiday break.
The day started as normal as any other day would have started up.
My mom got me up. You know I got dressed. I washed up by 8.
Not much you know. Really got myself ready for school.
I joked on my way out the door that I was going to do better
this semester because I was beginning to lose interest in
school. So we laughed about it and I left. I went to school. I
swear I stayed for the day and I came back close three o'clock
that afternoon. I notice when I got back that her car was gone
so soon that she was out running errands because I knew she had
just started a vacation.
So we lived in a three family private house housing which my
parents owned and we lived on
2nd floor. So as I'm walking up to the second floor, I can hear
the phone ringing and I rushed and open the 2nd floor door and
it was a girlfriend of mine's at the time they were asked if I
wanted to come by my said sure.
Seeing that my mom was in home, I was saying, well,
she should be back soon. By the time I got back from her
home, my mom should be back.
So I turn right around. I closed the door and left. I went to my
girlfriends house. I stayed until about 5:30 came back.
I notice that the car was still gone, so I'm saying, well, any
minute she should be home.
So I came into the house. I took off my things and I walked
towards the back of the
apartment. That's where the bedrooms were. My
bedroom was straightforward and my
parents bedroom was slightly off to the right.
I notice that my parents bedroom was open, which was something
that was rare if no one was in
the house. So, out of curiosity, I went into the bedroom.
At home I found my mom. She had been stabbed to death.
I immediately add I'm screaming and crying and I go to call the
police. And as I grab the telephone to call the police,
I notice that the phone from the base to the receiver is
not there. Something you may be too young to notice, but
you know the phones at one time had a cord from the base
receiver, and, uh.
It wasn't there because they had used the court to bind her
wrist, so I ran out to another telephone in the hallway. Then I
called the police not being able to stay in the house. I ran
outside and waiting for them to
come. When I got there everything was kind of a
blur because I couldn't get out of my head. Would
I just come home to find?
Um, it asked me what happened. I told him I, you know my
whereabouts for that day. I told him you know everything that I
could think of. They asked me if I notice anything was out of
place. I told him when I left this morning, the car was here,
but her car is not here now.
Um, I told him my dad was out of the country in Jamaica. We
called him immediately. He took a flight right back to
the states.
They asked me if there was any place or you know any other
family anything like that. I had a godmother who lived in Mount
Vernon, which wasn't too far from where we lived in the
Bronx. So they brought me there.
That was early on the morning of January 4th because this
happened on the 3rd.
Um, unable to eat or sleep.
I just pretty much just laid in
the bed. On January 5th.
The same police officers called my godmother said that they
wanted to bring me to the precinct for a polygraph test.
I had no desire to want to get out of bed or even you
know, just move that I couldn't do anything.
But I wanted to know what happened to my mom, so I
reluctantly I went to the precinct.
They brought me down there. I told him the same thing that
I told them on the afternoon of the third.
Maybe about an hour and a half, two hours into it, it went from.
A casual conversation to more accusatory and they said that
they knew. They had evidence that I committed the crime.
So I you know.
16 just you know?
Knowing what I saw and then to be to be told that I'm I'm
crying and amassing for my dad.
Um, they told me I would see my dad soon, but I need to tell
them what really happened.
And this goes on for awhile.
Amen, I'm telling him I didn't commit this crime. Finally, they
told me that they knew I was at a girlfriends house that day.
They checked that out, but what I may have not known
was that I was 16 and my girlfriend was 13, so.
That constituted statutory rape. I had never heard the term
before. Prior to this, I had never been questioned by police.
I'd never been, you know, in a police precinct, let alone for
something on the circumstances.
So he told me that if I didn't tell them that I committed this
crime, not only would I go to prison for the murder my mom,
but I would also go to prison for statutory rape and I, and
did I know what happened to people that were in prison for
statutory rate. However, if I chose to tell them, you know
what they needed to hear.
They wouldn't send me to prison for statutory rape and my dad
will be able to come and pick me up from family court.
Knowing that I was asking for my father the whole time, they knew
if we say his father will be able to be able to see his
father. He will tell us whatever you know we want, just as long
as he can get out of this room.
So from going into the precinct at 5:30 that afternoon, finally
at 10 after three, they got a videotape written and videotaped
confession and this construct story of how I had supposedly
killed my mom.
I was under the impression and I was so naive at the time, I was
thinking that if.
I did this. You know I would be able to see my father and this
would be all behind me. I'd
never been in. Any type of interaction with police. I
had no reason to believe that they were telling me
something that wasn't true.
And, uh, I've in my young mind. My 16 year old man. I thought
that as soon as I saw my father, I would tell him that you know,
this is what they made me say that's not, but that's not what
happened. But what I didn't know is that I was putting myself in
a position where I will be away a very long time.
So on um they arrested me on January 6, 1989. I was charged
with second degree murder.
And I was taken to Rikers Island, a place where he told
me, I, you know, I would avoid if I did what they asked.
I was taken there and we fought my dad and I. We fought hard for
two and a half closer three
years. Finally, in 1991 we lost that trial.
And, um, I was sentenced to 15 years to life. And, you know, we
appealed. We tried everything that we could, but nothing
seemed to happen.
My dad never made it to see me or release. He died in 2005.
I was released in 2009 but still
committed to. Getting to the truth and finding out
what really happened and clear my name.
So from 2009 until 2019.
We fought, we fought hard to unearth a lot of evidence in
the case, and we found a lot of things. And finally, on
January 24th.
2019 coming up on two years now. Ironically, I was exonerated. So
pretty much that's been the last 30 two years of my life. But
what's very interesting?
To notice that.
A week after.
They arrested me. They had me on the cover of all the tabloids.
Um, they did find my mom's car.
And they found my mom's car being driven by someone in Mount
Vernon not too far from where we lived in the Bronx.
So my arresting officers.
Learning about this, they went to Mount Vernon to find out who
is in possession of the car.
When they got there.
And they showed him who had the car. To their horror, it
was our downstairs tenant.
Someone who they questioned on 3rd and deemed to be someone who
was of no relevance to the case.
Um? They. They didn't. They didn't really
either dated no, or they didn't pay attention to the fact that
he had an extensive criminal history. He had a case where
there was involved in stabbing. There was a case involving
another, a previous landlord, all things that had. If they've
been looked at, would have made him the prime suspect.
So they had a problem at this point you had a coerced
confession from 16 year old child, saying he committed this
crime in graphic detail, but you're finding the car in
possession of a tenant who the child never made mention of.
You know you made a mistake, so at that point is where the real
crime took place and they.
Decided to cover up everything in a their hopes and their
intentions was to keep that forever buried and covered.
Thankfully, you know.
Because of passion because of people who were committed
to truth and we were able to unearth a lot of these
things so.
As I said, that's pretty much been the last 30 two
years of my life.
As opposed to the rattling on, I would like to open it up to you
guys for any type of questions and answers that you may have.
You know, because I'm sure there may be a lot of questions, so I
open the floor up to you all.
Thank you so much for sharing so we have some questions that
came in when people registered, but there's one that came in
from the Q&A box. Question is, do you feel any hatred toward
the cops that failed to find that basic criminal history of
the downstairs tenant?
Hatred is a strong word.
What I I've come to understand a lot of things I've come to
understand that it was the temperament of the time. It was
the fact that I was a young black boy and this was easy to
do. I understand all of these things in terms of feeling
you know agent for what they do. It's it's so many of us.
If I can just put something in in a framework.
This happened on January 3rd, 1989. By January 6 I was on
the cover. Every tabloid in New York City and everyplace else.
Little over 90 days later.
In April of 1989, they arrested five young men in a park and say
that they arrested and that that they raped a jogger.
Um? It's just something just to show the temperament of time.
It didn't matter, so you know in terms of feeling
hatred for them.
That's wasted energy as far as I'm concerned.
Very angry, very angry about what they did. I'm very angry
about what they still continue to do to people.
So you know, for me, I always say I choose to use
that anger in different ways as opposed to just screaming
at the top of my lungs. Sometimes when you
screaming, no one can hear you, you know so.
I choose to use that angle and in a lot of different ways, but
in in terms of hating their mom, that's that's wasted energy.
A couple more candy in the same context.
Do you know exactly why they didn't look any further into the
tenant? Yeah, um.
Here is the thing.
These officers are prior to them doing this to me.
There were two other people whom they had done this to and
extracted false confessions from two months, three months prior
that we know of.
Um, and now you had a case that you put a child on the cover of
every tabloid in New York City.
Which is pretty much the heartbeat for the rest of the
world in terms of its news.
And now you have something that says wait a minute. We
rush to judgment.
What do you say?
How do you answer? What did you do or and or say to a 16 year
old child to make him confess to the murder of his mother when he
obviously did not commit this crime? What did you do?
You know, so a lot of times.
They I feel like they didn't want to have to
answer those questions.
Because of what they have done in the past, and because of the
implications of this case in particular, it suited their
benefits to cover that.
You know so.
Question in fact about the officers. Have you heard from
them? Any apologies from them?
That's the gist of this, no? Um, they I doubt they would
ever be any apologies because to acknowledge.
To apologize, this is to say
that. You really, really did something right into a child
into a whole family, so they're not going to be any apologies.
There hasn't been any reaching out, but I'm thankful I'm
thankful for the civil lag of these things, because now you
get to ask people.
What they knew.
When they knew it, you know so.
Yeah no, no apologies.
Alright, kind of in that. I'm looking through all the
questions. Try to keep yeah yeah. So they convene this one
even though it's the most recent one is pretty similar. Was there
any protest for your rest? Did anyone believe you are innocent
beside your father? Yeah.
Say there were people who knew not believe, not just believed.
Who knew that I was innocent? However, the the echoing of the
tabloids and the news was much greater than the actual truth.
What's important to note is one of the advantages that the young
have now. Is that they have phones and they have ways to
mobilize and you know to get their point of view and
their opinion out there and people can galvanise around
that. We didn't have that we were pretty much operating
off of fear and whatever we were told was happening.
It was the order of the day, and for the reasons why they say I
committed the crime, what they gave as the motive.
As soon as you put these words in there, it's like, OK, it's
believable. We don't want to hear anything else again. It's
the temperament of the time.
Alright.
Next, what kept you motivated when you were going through
hardships or your time at?
But you know, I am asked that a lot, and then you know, I
say this a lot and please forgive me. I don't want to
sound corny man, but um, one of one of the main things that
kept me going is that I knew I wasn't supposed to be there.
Truth when you have it and it's internalised, it's it does
something for you. You can get through almost anything.
The other things is having an amazing dad.
Always encouraging always there
an. I had music. I had the ability to make and play
music while I was there, and I discovered running.
Which is something that.
Was very, very instrumental in um, I guess we getting through
things and you know, just coping with a lot. So I wish I
could lend it to one thing in particular. But you know,
sitting in there for 20 years after you know from from the
age of 16 you need a whole lot of different things. That kind
of keep you grounded so you know all of these things were
a factor.
Looks like there's some questions about a little more
specifics about your story.
The next Pokémon
what did you ever hear a why of why the killer killed your mom
and was there a time of death
established? And did the police verify you are in fact
in school at the time of that? Why was never established?
I don't know, um, these tenants.
Rented our downstairs apartment around October,
November of 1988.
This happened January 3rd.
We didn't know these people. They wanted checks and balances
in place like you have now with background checks and you know
you can you gonna rent somebody apartment in your place. You can
find out about them. Those things weren't as prevalent
then, so you know my parents were just concerned about making
up the mortgage. But you know, um?
There you know with with regards to the people from downstairs.
Um? We we really didn't really didn't know it on my dad.
Felt the way you know I would. I would hear him talk about them
because they had this big dog or
whatever. At home, he just didn't feel right.
And, um, you know. Sadly this happened after you know when
he went home to visit his mom, ironically so.
Couple more questions. What did the officer present as your
presumed motive for the crime and building on to that it
appears you had plenty of alibi. What did they present is
evidence that was able to OK great great questions, so
remember they didn't have when they brought me back into the
precinct on, uh, the 5th of January. They didn't a lot of
things. I guess they didn't
have. Well, according to according to them they
didn't have.
So when they got me to confess to this crime, is this
coerced confession? Their story was.
I hold a drug dealer
money for. For drugs that I was supposed to sell as opposed to
selling the drugs, I use drugs.
And on the night before this happened, I was using the drugs
and I was in an argument with my mom. I went to bed, woke up the
following morning, still high off the same drugs, picked up
the same argument, and went into the kitchen. Got the knife.
Then committed the crime.
Say at the same time the same drug dealer called the House.
And said, do you have my money? I says no, but I have
a car and I'll leave the keys inside the floor of the
driver side. And you can take the car when you come.
That was what they had me write as to what was my
motive. Again, it's important to note the time capsule.
Where New York City was in 1989 with regards to the crack
epidemic. Anything you put in any word you put in front of or
behind crack epidemic.
Um, it's believable. This plausable.
So it was believable that a 16 year old would never had any
interaction with law enforcement before. Who, you know, went to
parochial school most of his life. For everyone who you
canvas the neighborhood, set him in another head like this.
Crazy relationship where they're just like you know, just think
it's thieves and.
The only way you can make people believe that is by
having this outrageous story and that's what they were able
to sell to people. We may look at it now in 2021, even the
young among us and say this is ridiculous. This makes no
sense, but again, it's important to go back in that
time capsule.
We have someone with their hand raise, so right let that that
folks with the Magic button hit it and then they'll be able to
talk directly to you.
I'm very sorry that you had to go through that experience.
And I'm impressed with the strength of your character to be
able to. Heal as much as you could and be where you are now,
but I I have a question. It's one thing to talk about your
experiences. This instance. This is just one instance for you.
I would suppose that you have thought for many years and have
much more. Knowledge and insight into the root causes of why it
happened, and so I want to ask in my mind there's two sets of
actors. There's the individuals
involved. And what they did wrong? And then is the.
Solutions that empower them to
do it. What changes have you thought would need to happen?
To change things so that these.
Things that happen to you don't continue to happen.
And I am a New Yorker and I lived through those days in New
York. I remember Bernard Goetz and I remember, you know?
You know, I remember everything that was going on back there.
Culminating in Rudy Giuliani's brutal police force, so later.
So yeah, because it's a very confusing and complex issue, and
I wonder what you can share in terms of what you've concluded.
Um, with with all the years that I've had to sit back and just
just watch and once I became aware of what was going on to,
you know to see it. I was saying, you know, I believe the
questions that we need to ask take place at such local levels.
I mean when I meet what I mean by that is some prosecutors.
The prosecutor in my case.
She was given a case by the officers and they
said OK, well look we have a detailed
confession from this kid. You know this is a slam
dunk. OK, great.
You get the case.
A week later.
You realize the same officers call you back and I
and I'll show you what I mean with all of this.
They call you back or however you get the word and say,
well, we found the car connected to this homicide.
But it was the tenant.
Who is in possession of the car?
As a prosecutor or as an ADA.
In your mind you saying, OK? Well, how the hell did he get
the car? What is he saying?
Oh, you know. I mean we we have a solid case here. I don't want
to lose this case. Um?
The crime in my case took place right there between law
enforcement and the Bronx DA's office at the time.
That's where the crime took place. They decided that we're
going to cover this up so we can keep this case strong.
So I say all that to say this.
Where do we start at? Where is the help Locali holding?
I will prosecutors accountable for these things. They had a
last line of defense.
They're the ones that when the cases come to them, they
decide whether or not there is going to be prosecuted. They
have more understanding of law and what is right and what is
just then the officers will bring the cases to them.
If. They are not the.
A yardstick measurement of. You know what we should and
should not do? Then something is wrong. We have to hold
them accountable so when we find cases like mines, cases
like the exonerated 5 and countless other cases that
have just taken place just in this it just in New York,
someone has to be held accountable. That is the only
way that you begin to change this when people realize that
their freedoms and their their financial futures can
be infringed upon.
By participating in these behaviors, then, then and only
then will things begin to change and people will begin to follow
the law the way it should be followed. So if the case doesn't
look right, I don't want it.
Not only did the prosecutor in my case say OK, well, look.
Keep going with it. I'm going to help you and I'm going to hide
and not turn over to the defense. Things that I know will
exonerate this young man that there will be no trial because
we have evidence that he was in school at the time this
happened. We have evidence that says the woman who was with the
man from downstairs.
Was not at work when she told you in her initial statement
that she was at work.
Yeah.
Yeah, I just can I just follow up and then I'll I'll give it
time, everybody else? I'm thinking that it now I don't
know if this is true or not. I think that the district
attorneys are they appointed positions or they elected
position. The District Attorney in New York. They are appointed
positions, right so?
So what I wanted to say was, what would you think if.
It was a law that anyone 'cause I think that the District
Attorney's office attracts politically ambitious people.
Interested in power therefore and they will abuse the
system to gain that. So what would you say to a law that
says that district attorneys cannot run for public office
after they serve?
District attorneys cannot run for public office after this
service, so it removes the motivation to beat, you know, to
get headlines to to try to get to play the numbers games you
know. If convicted, you know 2000 people and you know, right,
right, right, OK, OK, you know what? I see exactly what you're
saying because and correct me if I'm wrong. You're saying
sometimes because of people's political motivations, they may
do things that shows that they have a good track record exactly
and the police are on a code of
system. Right, right, right. You know my whole thing is that even
before they we get to that point. I think that we can look
at the point of saying.
You know the people are going to hold you
responsible when we know that they're clear cases,
right?
Innocent when you consequences in place. Size from structural
change. Put that in place consequences in place. That's
the only way you're going to have true checks and balances.
In my OK, thank you for for your point of view on that.
Alright, still a bunch of questions. Keep em coming
problem better problem.
This one came in the chat and I've been waiting for the right
moment and I think I think we're there. So it's a two part
question, how did you get involved with the Innocence
Project and how did you all come up with all of the evidence that
got you example exonerated?
But funny story, um, after I exhausted a lot of my direct
appeals and stuff like that throughout the 90s.
I really didn't know where else to turn. I didn't believe that I
was going to get any get any relief with saying OK, well you
guys made you messed up in court or this is this point of law you
didn't? I said OK, but this is not going to work that way. So
once I exhausted everything and my trial attorney at the at the
time he and he passed, I began to write a lot of organizations
that will focused on reopening cases re examining cases. So
whoever had an or an organization like that, I wrote
to. Um, I remember writing to the Innocence Project years ago,
and they did write back and they said that you know your case is
this is not a case that has any DNA issues at the time. They
were only really dealing with cases that were DNA drift.
Um, I never stopped. I kept writing an I. I remember writing
again this time.
This letter was forwarded to Northwestern's law Clinic in
Chicago. And, um, they dealt with the like confessions for
false confessions from juveniles. So after seeing
something that happened in the case, they were like, wait a
minute there's something here.
I was still serving, I think, at the time I may have been in my
19th, 18th, 19th year.
And they they got in contact with me. They say, you know,
we're not guaranteeing that we're going to take the case,
but we want to hear some more
about it. I told him about it. I was and I was released after
that and they asked me, you know, if you still want to
pursue this case after you release, we know how guys get
home and they just just wanna
live. I said notice the gravity is too heavy to carry this. I
have to fight.
So we started kissing these key pieces of the case back
together and we got as far as we could up until 2016.
And we we set out to the
Innocence Project again. And they got on board, so it took
the collaborative efforts of three law clinics and 30 years
to overturn what they knew. A week and a half.
After, but that's neither here nor there, right?
Yeah.
How did you feel when when you were finally proven innocent? Do
people still think you did it?
Home. I don't know, I don't I I don't know but how I felt
after I was exonerated. I felt a weight was lifted off
me, as I often say.
Across there was never mind to bear.
But the thing about it is, even the exoneration, even with all
of the work that.
That was in place and needed to happen in order to make that
exoneration happen. Even my release on parole in 2009.
It was all you know. It was bittersweet because they were
victories for me as an
individual. But my parents hadn't gotten theirs even at my
exoneration. My parents still hadn't gotten there, so I mean,
it feels good. But there's still more work to do, you know?
Yeah.
This arena's from one member,
it's. It's amazing that you've chosen to Share your story. How
did you come about deciding you wanted to share it?
I think you know.
In answer to that, we were
sharing this sum. Backstage before we all got on.
I spent years.
Screaming I'm innocent. I'm innocent. No one could hear or
wanted to hear.
Now people want to hear.
I'm duty bound to tell the truth
to tell. What happened to me? What continues to happen to
other people and to continue to evoke my parents name so they
don't forget it? You know so?
Yeah.
This one is about your time.
How many?
Men did you meet along your journey? Who had a similar
experience? Either they knew they were innocent or there were
additional trumped up charges that that were thrown on the
cases to make their time longer. You meet a lot.
Um, sometimes.
There is a lot of shame that is accompanied with people who are
in there. In there, they're innocent because usually.
Not in all cases, but in a lot of instances.
If you look.
That a lot of the cases that people were exonerated.
The gravity of the circumstances were very heinous in nature.
So people don't really like you know. They don't really talk
about it, but I have met a lot of people where I may have known
the circumstances of the case. We never discussed it, but you
sit in a place for five 6, seven years, eight years and you just
around somebody. You kind of get a feel for.
Who and what the person is? Even if you live exchanged a word and
some people you realize you like something doesn't fit and then
you see these stories 15 years later that so and so has been
exonerated there guys who were represented by the Innocence
Project who I've been in yards with and we never knew that we
were both there for cases where we were innocent.
We didn't, you know, really talk until we got out here. So you
meet you meet people like that
along the way. You really do.
This question as a 16 year old, what was your experience
like in prison? Did you make friends or some mentors? Did
you face violence?
Oh yes yes yes yes.
Um?
They experience in their. I mean, let's look at it. I was a
16 year old kid.
No, as they say St experience, this wasn't a lifestyle of mines
and you put me in the worst prison in the worst County jail
in the country.
At the worst time in the country's history.
And you say, OK, we'll survive.
It was hard and it was very hard, especially being in there
for a crime of that nature.
So you do know you never knew where things were coming from?
Was it police? Was it prisoners? You just don't know.
Thankfully.
As the years went on.
People after being around you didn't like as I told you just a
minute ago something just
doesn't fit. Like what I'm hearing, what I'm reading, just
that's not who I'm seeing.
Um? So whereas you learn and it's not something I'm proud of
at all, where you learn to embrace of violence as a means
of OK, well, I have to do this in order to survive. You embrace
it. You're not proud of it, but.
You embrace every aspect of it.
You do that, but I'm glad that I left and I was mentored by
people who had who had been in prison from the time I was born.
Um, I was fortunate to be around them and to talk with
them. And then, you know, get their life experiences and
what have you so.
Yeah, with all of the bed there was good. It's just
the way I viewed it.
How is life after being exonerated? Has it been a
struggle to readjust to life outside?
No, because remember prior you know prior to the exoneration. I
had been home 10 years, so you know, I established a career as
an elevator mechanic, you know, just doing different things so.
The the readjustment um kind of by the time the
exoneration came. I was kind of like OK, I know what I'm
doing out here. However, when when the exoneration came.
That was what was so different about that.
Was to know that there was public acknowledgement that
there was wrong done.
And if there was in there ever a doubt in anyone's mind, it's
like, OK, well, now you know.
But you know, not not much is changed on my, my agenda is
still the same on there still work to do there. Still people
that I left there who don't have a voice. There are people who
did their time and they came home and they're innocent and
they don't know you know where to turn to to get their
convictions overturned. So there's still work to do.
Yeah.
Another one about your life now.
Can we see all the instruments? Yeah, yeah yeah. Well, well, you
know what so interesting back story is that my dad prior to
following my mom over here to America. They came over here.
They were married in 1970.
And I'll tie this into the instruments they were married
in. 70 An England man they came
over here. And prior to that, my dad was a bandleader. He
played the saxophone.
When he came here, being in, my mom wanted to pursue nursing.
There was no room for his style of West Indian music in America,
so he had to break up the band and find a way to make a living.
So he did that, but thankfully he passed down music to me and
in my jeans. So coming up in the Bronx in the early 80s, the only
music I could hear was rap music. So that's what I grew up
doing. That's what I grew up loving, so as fate would have
it, you know, prison, they allowed you to have instruments,
so I was able to keep going with music and keep practicing. So
it's it's always brought me Peace of Mind. It's always
brought me. An escape and it's old music is always been good to
me during the worst time, so I keep it around me.
Yeah.
How do you think that your previous life experiences
will in will influence your future plans?
Um?
It gives you.
It gives you this tenacity like you know, regardless of
a stone at you, you're not going to give up.
Because you know that whatever you're doing is is right. It's
for a good cause. So my experience is always taught me
that, and even during the darkest moments of those days,
in there like was always made. I don't know. Don't ask me how I
wish I knew I had the formula and like I did it all myself. I
wish I had that but.
Away was always made and I was always thankful for it.
So when your your intentions are alive, right?
Things are going to work, you know.
Yeah.
Alright.
What are who did your immediate support system consist of when
you were first released?
When I was first released my support system.
I had 'cause I had cousins on my mom's side. You know, by the
time I had gotten home, people had gotten older. They had moved
away. They had passed, you know, so I, you know, a lot of the
children of those older relatives they they were there
so my support system was a lot of cousins, ironically.
A great part of my part of my.
Support system were guys who were in there with me who had
about three or four years freedom on me. They were able to
show me what not to do and you know where they had missteps. So
that was kind of priceless because after being in there for
long period of time, sometimes you only trust the people that
you've been around.
You know, so yeah.
That's pretty much what it look like.
This person says they can't imagine what you've gone
through. How have you been self caring, self caring to
heal from the trauma of being wrongly persecuted?
But I I believe that, um.
By dedicating myself to.
Holding people accountable.
Making sure that this doesn't happen to some other 16 year old
someones expect unsuspecting 16 year olds or anyone for that
matter. Um? I don't know. I that's a lot of the self care
that I do. Um, a lot of time I'm questioned by people that say,
you know, have you met? You've never spoken to anyone before,
and until that I'm saying no, I, I never have but.
I don't know who's qualified to help me understand what I do.
I'm not sure you know, forgive my forgive my arrogance, but I
I'm I'm not sure.
What specific things can we do is at the college level
to support formerly incarcerated students?
Um?
On a college level.
Where do you guys see society going?
What direction do you see it going in, um,
is there a need for.
More people who can fix lawnmowers or more people who
are equipped with IT.
What do you see the needs that
society has? Because you have a wealth of people who want to
learn who want to provide for their families who don't want
to go back to the situations that they were headed.
That's one oppurtunity whether they were innocent or guilty. I
assure you that no one packs their stuff on a day-to-day
being released from prison. Unlike television and says,
well, you know, I can't wait to go knock that bank off as soon
as I get out of this. Didn't know nobody says that.
You know, so um, where you guys see society going?
For me is where people need to be trained so they can have an
opportunity again to provide for themselves for themselves and to
be able to contribute to society. Because I am of the
opinion that. They say when you go to prison it's a debt
to society you're paying.
No, you're not paying a debt to society. I believe the
debt to society begins once you released.
Oh Lord, put you in there because you violated
something. The debt comes when you begin to repair and
rebuild what you destroyed.
Um, but they have to be armed with the tools in order to
build. So where we see society going?
Is where we need to be training people who are being released
from prison. And I think that's why focus should be.
What can we do to help fight these injustices and help with
criminal justice reform?
Um?
I think it boils down to one word from the accountability.
As long as there's no accountability for anything.
Things are going to continue the same way.
When people know as I said earlier, when people realize
that oh wow, I can lose my freedom. I can lose, you know,
the ability to take care of my
own family. By trying to destroy someone elses people stop it. A
lot of consideration will be taken before they do what they
did to me and what they did to
many others. So for me, accountability.
How do you channel your anger from this experience into
creating positive change that you're now trying to do?
Knowing that what I'm knowing what that what I'm doing now is,
is is right. It's in it's worth it, and it's interesting that
whoever raised that question because I often talk about
anger, and I often say that anger is a lot like fire. It can
be used to heat your home, or it can be used to burn your home to
the ground. It's it's all depends on how its harnessed.
So, um, you know.
I'm I'm on fire I'm I'm I'm very angry but I choose to use a fire
to heat my home and help people that you know as opposed to just
burning it down. As I said to you earlier, sometimes when
you're hollering and screaming, no one can hear you.
You know?
Alright, so we have on wireless.
Henries so we got.
I had a chat with you.
Hey, what's up in law?
Can I recover person so?
First question is how was the police due to you before you
had your incident?
Overall neighborhood back then, is it the same as it is right
now or today for us?
Um?
Yes and no. As a a
child of. Jamaican immigrants, we weren't told in the House,
you need to be scared of the police. They were told that you
know listen there to help you. You know. I mean you have a
problem, you know.
The police are there to help you. That's what I grew up
hearing as a child.
So This is why when this happened they were able to get
me into the precinct. This this rearing that I had was too
trusting. So when they told me that the only way that you're
going to get out of this and we want to help you.
Is if you do this.
Um, how has it changed? Well, my views are definitely change, and
since that time we have watched.
Far too many instances of my case exonerated 5 case and
current countless other cases where there has been this
misconduct where. They have told the public do not trust us.
We didn't have to change our views. I mean, you know we still
the same as we were. They told us don't trust us.
And um, now we live in a day and
age where? We are watching murders happen in real time via
phones, so they're telling you don't trust us so you know know
a lot has changed in that regard. From when I was 16 to
now being 48.
I have one more question.
What do you think is the
solution? Put us being locked up so much because it's been
happening for awhile and like from that boy named George
Stinney happen already back then. Happening now what's the
solution? 'cause seems like once we made progress is
always something those might be like. 3 strikes rule like
cleaning stuff.
What's the solution if we keep coming up with stuff we keep
trying to, but we don't do this now, but they keep giving us
this and the kids Stylus 2 steps back like was like what's up?
Baby, that's a great question bro man, we have to understand
this. 1st is that prison as we know it.
Um? Is an entity of business in this country.
This country has more people locked up in some countries
population. This is we just have that many people out. You know
it's an entity of business with any business. You need something
to keep the business going.
Sadly we have begun. We had become or have always been
the father to keep this business going. What do we do
to change that? To stop that, I think it takes place. As I
was saying before.
Back at the local level, man with our communities, I think we
have to understand that.
There are people who we are depending on who do not have our
interests. They had never have, nor will they ever have our
interests. They don't have the interests of your babies. They
don't have the entry server over
any of us. Um, it's our
responsibility. Um? To discipline ourselves, it's our
responsibility to create our world, you know economies. So I
saw it so some responsibility to do these things so you know.
With that, if we had depending on anything asking.
People who are in control of prisons to say, what can we do
to stop this? And they're not gonna tell us because it's the
entity of business that we are needed for. The responsibility
is ours.
And you know this. This pipeline from from neighborhoods to
prisons. It you know it, it really has to stop in New York.
80 something percent of New York State population comes from the
five boroughs out of the five
boroughs. That number come from
7 neighborhoods. That's by that's really bad design.
So it's it's us to have that we have to have the responsibility
to say, you know, it has to stop and has to stop here, you
know, and I hope I asked the question bro you did like
thanks a lot man. Alright man.
Thanks for being willing to call in Omar. We have another hand
raised. I think Jonathan wants to speak with you again, OK?
I am, I know that you experience your life locali OK and that I
agree with you on the accountability and the Peoples
Hearts have to change and you have to change it. Locali I get
that but I really think that the way we changes to vote. OK, I
think that the change is not going to happen from the bottom
up. It's gotta happen from the top down. It's a dual track. I
won't say that it has to. It's a dual track. OK 'cause I think we
have to vote. For change, I think that the date that the
that the grand juries need to be independent of the mayor's
office in every city. OK, it needs to be an independent grand
jury, independent of the of the.
Cities institutions were that grand juries operating, whether
at state level, whether we have a federal level of grand juries
to be independent, to investigate whether or not
police should become should be brought to trial.
And.
You know? So just just one example, I think we have to
vote to change the structure of how we do things from the
top down. That's that's what I think we need to do
absolutely, and that's what I'm that's what I did in this
election. And that's why I got my eyes glued to the TV today.
Working on my computer.
I'm trying to channel my anger.
According to your advice, like you said, yeah, you know and
what's what's interesting is that I agree with you.
A lot of things do have to be challenged from the top
down, and if I can add to my point when I say things
from the local level up.
You're not going to have
politicians run. Whether it's for re election or to be
elected, if the sentiment of the people, it's like no. It. It's
not. The messages don't coincide, so the people are
asking for a, you know, a person that's going to deal with these
kids who are going to take these issues upstairs for us.
That's why I believe that a lot of the local things are
important. I believe that a lot of things that happen locali
don't come under too much scrutiny. And This is why. Maybe
after 10 eight, nine 1015 years of stuff that people don't do
locali we see something happened on the news where it's been all
the fraud and embezzlement for all of these years because no
one is paying attention to what's happening locally.
You know, and they don't have the interests of the people.
So whereas I agree with you, I definitely still stand on my
point that we do have to do things from the bottom. And,
you know, for for the sake of agreeing, I think that's
something that needs to be burnt from both ends, right?
I'm not disagreeing with you at all times. Exactly what I'm
saying, yeah.
Thank you.
Alright, next question. I apologize if I'm inaccurately
paraphrasing, but at the beginning you mentioned that
the way people are feeling and viewing the violence at
the Capitol.
Is the way that some people who are incarcerated have
often felt and may experience the world? Can you elaborate
a bit on that? Yeah.
The way people are looking at the violence, you know I'm
listening to a lot of opinions. There's a lot of uncertainty
and I'm sure if I asked everyone here or are you
uncertain about what's going to go on in the future, I think
everyone would say, well, we know this, we know, but I'm not
sure. So there is an uncertainty.
The life of a lifer in prison is based on uncertainty. Are they
going to let me go at this parole board today?
Are they gonna deny me for two years or am I going to make it
through the day? These are things that you deal with on a
day to day, along with a host of other things along with the
uncertainties that people are feeling. People are also
feeling a lack of trucks. Regardless of what side of the
fence you're on, you are feeling a lack of trust from
the people that you say or the ones were to lead you.
Just like that, people in prison have a lack of trust
because people tell them things all the time.
Everything is about hurry up and wait. This is going to
happen. This appeal might happen.
It's it's pretty much the same feelings. Um, the picture is a
bit different, but when I look at the emotions that everything
that I'm saying give to the people, I'm saying, wow, that's
the lot of the ways that prisoners feel, and I hope I
answered the question. Whoever asked me to elaborate.
Question asked, well, ask a second. How do you feel about
the Black Lives matter? Protests advocating for black injustice?
Have you attended any of the
processing here? Um, no, I'll I'll answer in
reverse. No, I haven't.
Attended any of the rallies.
Not that I didn't want to.
But
last year when I said this, I said the year is 2020.
If I have to hold up a sign to you that says my life
matters because of the skin that I'm in in 2020.
Then we've all failed.
I'm not going to do it, and if I'm going to go out there, I
will not be holding a sign.
Um? That's just the way I feel about that. I feel I have
respect for any movement that.
Is trying to champion the cause of us being slaughtered?
In the street.
I also understand that I live in a country that they can
take information and I don't know where the information
is. What what is true and what's not true.
Alarm. Again, I support anything that saying slaughtering a black
life or any life just in the street because of this skin is
like, you know, that's wrong.
So as I stand next to that.
But in terms of everything that I'm hearing and seeing
on the news, I don't know what's true. I don't know
what's not true. I don't have boots on the floor and I
don't rely on my television to relate truth to me.
These are some wise words right there.
The.
Your story is truly amazing. Trauma comes in many forms.
Is the city or state helping you as far as going through
your healing process?
No, they they they they are not. That's not what they're in the
business of. They're not in the business of healing. They're in
the business of destroying the business of healing is your own
and those who have gone through the same things that you have
gone through so you know you kind of galvanized around them,
and, um. Oddly enough, for whoever asked.
Your lot of our healing is through you guys.
Know that it's through you guys because we've been told and
taught for so long that we are not regular. You know citizens
and that we are different and you know, by virtue of being
discriminated, with jobs and different things, that we can
and cannot do, it's reinforced.
So the ability to sit and talk with you all, man,
you know it's like, yeah.
Yeah, reinforces that.
Next two questions or the same vein, so I'm going to
combine them.
They both. They're asking it. Yeah, if there was any
compensation for your own full conviction and then there's a
second part to one that's have you pursued any education or
career since since all of this? Yeah, as far as comp
compensation of you know for what they are, what they did for
what they took from me. I can't put a monetary value on that.
However, I know what people respond to.
Um, so you know I am in a civil phase of what's going on now. So
I mean, I'm I'm pursuing that.
They're not in again. As I said, they're not in the
business of helping you cope when I get there.
So yeah.
Other.
But the second part of that was.
Any education that you've either hoped you would do afterwards or
have done afterwards to set you up for the future.
You know what's funny, I, um.
After coming home, I think maybe about a year or so I got into
the elevator industry.
Not sure how they kept me around the amount of time they kept me
around, but they did and I learned a lot and it was a
created I. You know, I could have kept going with after I got
exonerated. I decided to leave
it. Um? I believe I was saying it early. I'm in
school for electronic, you know, engineering for audio
engineering so just really getting into the nuts and bolts
of what makes sound sound. So I'm enjoying that. So you know.
You must ask. That's all that's going on outside of that. Just
talking to you guys, man. Just making people aware of all the
things that's happened.
Um?
This is a deeply personal question, just you were not
only wrongly persecuted, but wrongly persecuted for the
murder of your mother. What was your grieving process
like? Or did you have time to grieve because you were so
focused on your fight? No, not not a personal question. They
robbed me of that.
My mom was murdered on January 3rd.
I laid in a bed from the 4th until the 5th when they came to
get me on the morning of the sixth they were arresting me.
There was no time to really grieve. I was denied the
ability. So the opportunity to go to the funeral on the 11th.
Fighting to try to free myself. My dad and I.
There was still no time to properly grieve after being
sentence to 15 a life. You still
committed into. You know writing this wrong and you're fighting.
You're fighting you wake up one day and you're sitting in
prison. You have seven years in and people are getting sick and
older and dying.
And you still going on is still going on. You realize you
haven't grieved. I didn't grieve until I got home.
So in answer to your question.
That's when it happened.
Alright, the last one in the Q&A box. There's one
in the chat. OK, we have some of the original ones.
But this one is how can students and people in general get more
involved with advocacy or efforts like those of the
Innocence Project? What do you recommend, or what advice could
you give on how we can work to make things better? Oh, man.
Find out and you know. I mean, whatever cities guys are in that
you may be visiting or that you know you just staying in for a
period of time or see if there's an Innocence Project there and
volunteer by all means volunteering his wife say that
even before I was exonerated.
Do you know they would call me down to the office if they
wanted to go through something something they wanted to look
at? An, you know I was coming from work. I was working in
Midtown at the time so it was nothing to leave there. Leave
work and you know go down man. So I'm coming there with the
work suit on and everything.
But as I'm in the hallways, I'm seeing all the pictures of all
of the guys that were exonerated over the years. The stories, the
articles, the people buzzing about, talking about the cases
and how passionate they are.
About wanting to see people released, there was an energy
and it survived. When you walk into the building that
sometimes I would go and it's like OK, I'm not supposed to
be here, but I'm just here. You know I'm trying not to be
strange. It's just a vibe man.
So if you can get an opportunity to find any Innocence Project
while anything that's dealing with innocence work, volunteer
your time. You're gonna learn so much about cases you're gonna
learn by virtue of default about law and what people are doing
and how law is being violated, how people's rights are being
violated so you know, for whatever you don't know. Oh,
volunteer, man, you know.
Yeah.
Whatever or other seem panelists has asked the question in the
chat box, and instead of me reading it, I'm just going to
turn it over to him so.
OK, it's not letting me turn on my video, but that's OK.
OK, cool.
All right, you know.
Yeah, yeah. Brother Hugh, first of all, you know I don't know,
you know I don't even I just need to just tell you you know
what, your what your story
means. What your spirit means, you know you don't even have to
say one word.
Just looking at you looking at your face looking at your eyes.
You know it's just, you know it's just transformative. Just
being with you.
So I mean, I don't even need to say anything else.
I said the question the question that I that I typed in the chat,
you know come comes from some of the work that I've done.
With the prisoner education, you know I've had the chance. I've
had the honor of you know, sitting with prisoners on the
inside talking about their own leadership, their own education.
The question that that you know that I posed in the chat is that
I think that the public is very willing to look at your case.
You know, after the 30 years of struggle and they say, oh, you
know you're innocent. This is horrible. You know what happened
to you? This never should happen to you, but all those other you
know cats on the inside. Well, you know they're not innocent
Innocence Project isn't there not going after them? They're
not saving their, you know them.
And so the question is, you know how do we challenge this idea of
good victim of the, you know, so-called good and deserving
victim of the criminal justice system versus those you know. I
mean do do the crime, do the time you know.
So that that's the main thing you know, how do we?
We elevate a more complex understanding of innocence
and guilt in the stories, but I'm going to leave, but
I just I just love you. You know thank you so much, man,
I appreciate it. You know, I think the answer to that.
Because a lot of those friends that I spoke about.
Some people that I will take my last dollar out and give.
But they will tell you that they were guilty, as did as
the day is long for what they win, therefore, but their
their hearts and beautiful.
Bar none, I've gotten more things done. I've gotten more,
you know. I mean, just love and respect from people who society
wrote off. So that being said, I believe that the answer to that
is actually you already doing it going back inside.
Going back inside, when you provide the tools.
For guys to come out as I was saying earlier to come out and
make a living for themselves and showed him that you'll listen,
people are not here to say OK what we going to bar you from?
No you you got something here you're gonna be made to be OK
we're not gonna make it where you're struggling and people are
looking at you a certain way you're going to be able to
compete. But you have to qualify yourself.
And that's the work for us. Going back inside there and
empowering uh people.
They're not going to educate your sons, your grandsons, your
nephews, and not going to educate them. You know what I
mean? So that is on us to give them the tools and resources
that they need. As I said, we can see where out here we see
where society is going. We see what society is in need of what
direction it's going in. If someone is in prison fixing lawn
mower engines, you might not be competitive in what's going.
Hang on. With what's that going on out here? So it's
for us to go back inside?
And armed people that we needed to provide people with
the resources they need. So people need basic things when
they come home.
Your necessities, your food, you clothing in your shelter. I
think when those things are taken care of, people can go out
and say OK, I can be the best version of myself. If you have
to worry about any of the three coming out from prison, you're
on your way back.
I only have one more question. It was it was from the.
The forms that people felt out.
Other others have questions, feel free to raise your hand. Or
oh, there's another one that just showed up, but.
Super theoretical question. OK, if I had a magic button for you
that you could press and go back in time to 1988, so your your
prior, would you press? You would get to keep your memories
of what's happened to you though. Would you press it and
what's the first thing that you would do if you if you decided
to press it? So um, so I'm in 1988 and I'm pressing a button
to continue to keep going with all of the memories and
everything that I've had with all the years of experience.
Um Ann, you're saying, what would I change, if anything?
Um? With all of the pain, the hardships, all of the loss.
I wouldn't change.
A day of it all.
It showed me this whole thing is showing me a lot about people
strengthen my own character.
Um?
The depths people are willing to go to destroy life the depths
people are willing to go to prove your innocence.
I learned a lot and had this
never happened. Good, bad, or indifferent? I would have never
seen these lessons alone. These lessons I would have just been
someone just going on about his life at the age of 48 and I
would have probably would have been one of the guys in one of
these audiences. Like wow, what resilience you know.
I wouldn't change a day of it.
Fat
this person in the audience has a statement that's as opposed to
that, and I'm going to read it and it's on that computer.
That's why I'm looking sideways. OK, I felt the same way about
Hugh once he turned his camera on. I felt a strong powerful
energy you didn't have to say a word. I felt everything by
looking at you the way you perceive this whole situation is
just mind blowing so positive, encouraging, inspired by you.
Thank you for sharing.
Thank you listen. I thank you guys for for listening, you
know. There there are people who.
Sacrificed everything and they never got the opportunity to see
what you all seeing. Now they just made the investment in me.
You all seen the fruits of it so.
Yeah, I'm I'm. I'm humbled. I'm humbled by everything.
This person asks if you're willing to share contact info if
they have future questions that they know. Yeah, absolutely man.
My email is my name Hugh Burton, 72, at Gmail, so you know.
Please and I I love to communicate with people. I love
to talk man and just hear different views and to know.
But younger people think, um, I believe that.
The generations before me for falling 10 purposes in a lot of
areas we dropped the ball.
Will have so much information at your disposal. I'm like,
you know I I look to to the younger people like you teach
me something. I'll share my experiences but teach me
something.
So you know this is this is great for me. Please just just
contact me. Um ideas. You may have a viewpoint. Some things
that you want to do. If I can be instrumental in telling you
something or something that you think I should be doing,
by all means, let's talk.
Assessment and it looks like media service and I were
typing at the same time, so we drop that in the chat box for
folks. It didn't catch it when you said it. Another question
came in sorrows. Our best egekeze educators a person can
see. Further through it tear than a telescope any day.
With the people that you met while you were incarcerated,
would you say that you find this quote is generally true?
Yeah, um, it really is. When you when you're inside there.
Regardless of how.
Tough the exterior of people who may be there regardless of how
much violence you may see
someone exercise. Um, there's always those moments.
That that sell closes at night. Who knows lights they shut them
down and this just you alone with the thoughts and sometimes
you can look into the eyes of other people and you can see the
despair you can see.
The uncertainty of tomorrow and what's going to happen. So
yeah, sometimes a tear or just look at it, someone's eyes can
see much much further than a telescope. I agree.
Have some little a little bit in one of the answers.
Obviously it wasn't an ideal situation for you to end up
in, but was the learning worth it in the knowledge of gain on
the justice system and with all the ways you've been able
to help others out.
A hell of a price to pay for four lesson or 4 lessons.
Um?
I.
I cringe. When I think of
how. The world would be through my eyes if I didn't see all I
saw in the 20 years and of being in prison and studying the
things that I studied at cringe
to know. The world you know my position in the world. If
I hadn't had that.
It could be you are on alright.
Hello um, so honestly this is been like really expiring just
because like my parents like they taught me like they taught
me basically like they tried hard like the teachers about
like going like about the injustice about police officers
and justice system for like a very young age.
Like it sounds like, but like basically my history and like
how like like school systems most likely aren't going to
teach about this, so we're going to teach you and I so like it
was really inspires hearing your story and then like I followed
this story. Actually 'cause we had like we had we had to write
a paper about like.
Like people in prison that like I'm a fighter for the
Edison San like how can we tell the difference between
like if they were actually guilty or if they were like
actually innocent? And so I know your story was one. The
Central Five was the other one.
And then, like when you finally got released, I was like happy
'cause I was like battleye like you know how he's been in there
for years? Innocent and he's he's like stuck in like it was
just stuck in this house is so happy that like you got out and
also I was also happy that she picked you chose to like teach
people about your experience instead of choosing anger.
Because like I know a lot of people who like would be angered
by this situation and be like
you know. I don't want to, I just don't want to talk to
anyone. I just want to live my life and so did like the fact
that you're willing to teach people with the experience is
really amazing and I like it a lot. I appreciate that man. I
listen, I thank you so much,
man. And. The fact that there is acknowledgement is something
that keeps me going on. Let me know that I'm doing something
right, so again, I appreciate your words. Yeah, yeah, it's
really easy. I think I honestly that's like why I want to do
what I want to do. So like I'm currently getting my Masters
right now. Criminal justice with a focus in victimology, 'cause I
want to help juveniles an like.
Maybe it's my my end goal is to get rid of the juvenile systems.
I will get rid of juvenile detention centers and replace
them with programs that like give them been like basically
like it's kind of a group home, but it's the benefit them to
become better. Know like that. Wanna become better in their
lives? Because I honestly think that juveniles, all our future
and so all they need is hope and someone that's going to be
willing to listen to them and give them what they need to
succeed. So like you know, if they want to be.
Football player, engineer, technician, whatever like I
wanna like be that personal.
To get to the weather would be like I wanna do some budgeting
skills. Anne how do taxes and stuff like that? 'cause I know a
lot of juveniles like they don't get that like they don't. You
know they go to college and like what is this or like date or
they'll go to work but they're like how do I set up a resume so
like like honestly like that's what makes you drive 'cause
like. Like we criminalize alot of juveniles and we just say
well, they're bad. You know they're bad oh, they just they
just have to go to prison or they would have to go to jail is
like no I let's look up like how they are like close look at you
know what they've been through. As people are nice. Try to help
them instead of just saying well they're going to prison anyway.
Exact you know I. I just to echo that sentiment I you know.
I believe if given a choice and if given resources most
juveniles they will choose to want to win. Yeah, they will
listen to any advice that's going to help them when and help
them become the best versions of themselves. But if we're
starting out out of the gate, but you know school to prison
pipeline kind of, have you never, you know, you never
reinforcing that to them, so some may like a lot of my
friends makes it.
In prison 1012 years before they realize hey, I'm really
good at doing something. I'm gonna go home. You know what I
mean? But you've been sick for 12 years now. You know what I
mean. So let's let's make sure that we do something so we
don't have to have those revelations after a decade.
That's my whole goal is to try to get them to do that early.
Alright know what they want to do early then for them to be
sitting in Jello prison till about 10 years. Then like
actually want to do this now,
yeah? Alright, that's that that's what's happening. Please
keep up the work man. I hope that things from you in the
future. Thank you welcome.
Alright, we've got one more question in the box. OK asking,
I'm going to add a little to it, but did you ever hear or see
Tupac or any other famous or notorious folks at your time and
right there so no two pock he came upstate. I believe 1995 so
they had him. They put him in a facility that may have been 12
hours North of New York.
10 to 12 hours North of New
York. Um, at the time I was in a place that was maybe
only 2 1/2 hours away because of his celebrity. They wanted
to keep him as far away from the city as Poss.
Um, as far as um, other famous fellas. I've never really gotten
to see anybody come in famous. I have seen a couple leave and get
a little famous or through rap music I've seen that.
That that is, I believe, the end of the questions we
we have for you.
Is there anything else?
Senior like they normally ask me this, no one asked me that.
You know, um, no. My my thing is.
With all of these things, I always try to leave all the
listings with this. All of it's often not if we don't have a
call to action.
And what I try to leave people, what is this? We're in
a phase now where criminal justice reform and these
things these hashtags seem to be the thing of the moment.
It's important anyone is hearing not to allow it to become a
hashtag because long after our politicians are going back to
the business as usual, there will still be people's lives
languishing in prison, wrongfully convicted, and you
know, it's if it's no longer the flavor today, then they're just
there. Um? Let us not forget those who are there. Let us not
forget those who need our help, not just those who are innocent,
but those who want to come back and really want to make a impact
in society and really want to pay a debt back to society that
they know they. Oh, I think we owe it to them to give them the
resources that they need so they can achieve that objective.
So you know, I try to leave people with that, so let us have
a call to action to get involved with people coming home. Find
creative ways to employ people, love to educate people to train
people. Um, the more training, the more education and more
stability the more family unit people have, the less likely
people will return to prison.
Then that's a hell of a job that you all are doing. If you can
contribute to that, trust me.
I don't know if you have your chat box up right now. In
addition to Q&A, but there are. They're coming in fast and
furious that I'm looking. I'm looking at it were the things
and there's one. There's one in particular who has their 16 year
old with them and they are having a discussion about.
Like if if that happened today to that person and yeah I was
looking at that. Yeah, that's that's that's very interesting.
They know when you had the 16 year old so even more so now
than when I was 16. Things were very, very wild. Very violent
then. But things now in 2021 are
very tribal. So it's very dangerous for 16 year olds when
trying to navigate in a world where they trying to identify
who they are. You come from a home, but then you have
pressures from outside it. It's it's a lot that folk that a 6
year olds dealing with men now.
You know, so um.
I think that's Catherine Rabbled. I'm not sure if
I'm pronouncing a last name correctly.
But yeah, that's that's very
interesting. Wow.
What? Well, I can't. I'm behalf of Green River and myself and
everyone who's here thank you enough for sharing your story.
I. I will go ahead and speak for everyone to know they were
touched in some way as you were sharing your story. I knew I was
going to have to start asking you questions and it's like how
am I going to get myself back together? Yeah, I'm sure some of
it is relieving when you share it. But yeah, just.
The. To be able to put to words your experiences.
I'm forever grateful for the hour or two we've
spent together.
But then we think think we can't thank you enough for this
time again. As I always say, man, I I think you guys were
providing platform on its been along time that I've been
asking for a platform like this. So it's like you know I'm
just grateful for everyone who invites me to speak somewhere.
You don't know how much you giving me a therapy at always
said you guys on my couch.
So is therapy for me.
Unless something else comes along, think I want to thank
everyone for coming and spending some time with us and.
Be on the lookout and your emails and on the calendar for
upcoming events from all of the entities who are Co sponsoring
this, we try to keep folks in the loop of all all that's
happening, so have a good day to everyone who joined us.
Take care guys.