Alright, I think we will go ahead and get started then so
welcome everybody. My name is Jody Segal and I coordinate our
public program at Green River College and thank you so much
for coming today. This is our final one book presentation for
fall quarter. And it is called imagining a prison to college
pipeline, and this will be a conversation between Green
River College English faculty member Mark Barrington. And then
we were honored to have two guests with us. Today we will
have, we have Shajuanda Tate and Tonya Wilson who are both Co
founders of the Freedom Education Project Puget Sound.
Um? So that's what today's talk will focus on. And then I just
want to say a little bit about where we've been so far this
quarter quarter. It's been very
powerful and. The turnouts been great, and we've just we've
gotten lots of really good feedback, and I just want to.
Mention a little bit where we've been. We started out looking at
mass incarceration in the United States with a talk by Kate
Lawson Rogers from sociology, Nikita Oliver came and spoke to
us all, and she talked about racism in policing and the
defunding movement, and the Black Lives Matter, movement and
activism. We heard from Doctor Jashon Banks and a guest
talking about the school to prison pipeline and you can see
the talk of today's. Today's talk is a play on that. And then
most recently we heard were really, really fortunate to hear
the powerful Jeremiah Bourgeois, his talk and second chances,
retribution and reform. And he was talking about the impact.
He talked a lot about.
Second chances, and the difference between
punishment and rehabilitation.
In an with incarceration.
So. Today's talk will build on that And and step us further
into this conversation on the US carceral system and injustice.
Winter quarter I want to give you a heads up and please an
invite you to please join us winter quarter. We're really,
really excited.
On January 13th, we'll have a speaker from the Innocence
Project. And if you're not familiar with it, the Innocence
Project is devoted to exonerating wrongly convicted
individuals. And it also works to reform the criminal justice
system to prevent further injustice and then.
On February 24th and 25th, we're very fortunate to be
able to bring our one book author, Miss Susan Burton,
to our campus. She's the author of becoming Miss
Burton from prison to recovery to leading the
fight for incarcerated women. She's amazing.
And she'll be on Wednesday afternoon the 24th. Her keynote
address is called.
I do have it there dreaming of justice, working for freedom
Susan Michelle Alexander, who wrote The New Jim Crow: Mass
Incarceration In The Age of Color Blindness. She called Miss
Burton. The Harriet Tubman of our era for her work for
building a pathway for women after incarceration. She's an
amazing force for justice and change. And yeah, please do join
this winter quarter. Will have much more also happening at the
bottom of the screen. I have a link to our research guide. It's
full of research. Resources, tons and tons of resources on
all different aspects of this topic that we're looking at this
year. So please do dive on in if you have any questions, please
reach out. If your student and you'd like a copy of one of our
one books, you can shoot one of us an email at the library and
we will get you copy. Set that up and then just one final word
before we get started. If you have questions, you can use our
Q&A to write them. You can also in their raise your hand if
you'd like to ask your question live. We invite you to do that
as well today so.
I'm really honored to invite all of you to welcome, not invite to
welcome our guest today. Thank you so much for coming and I
will stop sharing my screen now and turn it on over.
-Thanks Jody, appreciate that and I'd like to welcome Shajuanda Tate
and Tonya Wilson. I have I'm not a slide person, but I do have two
slides to sort of set the context, so I'm going to share
those quickly and then I'm going to turn it over to us. Having a
conversation with Shajuanda. And and Tonya.
So before we get started like to make a note about language, the
Underground Scholars Initiative is a California based movement
focused on re entry and increasing access to higher
education for the formerly incarcerated. They write quote.
Increasing attention is being given to the language people use
when discussing individual or group identities and
experiences. In large part, marginalized people must demand
the respect to create an amplified language that they
consider more humanizing. The negative narratives imposed on
us by dominant society End Quote. As such, there are number
of terms used to describe system impacted people that carry
stigma. And misrepresent people in the larger system. the
Berkeley Underground Scholars does a really good job of
providing a language guide.
For negative navigating the vocabulary social with issues
related to incarceration. It's expensive and worth a look. And
so I share on the screen here. You sort of just the rather than
criminal justice system.
They suggest carceral system and rather than ex convict felon or
any other names that are associated with people who have
been imprisoned. It's formally incarcerated person. But I'll
also ask Shajuanda and Tonya to speak to that as late as
they feel they need to and Secondly.
I want to share a moment that sort of really, really
matters when we talk about education in prison.
And I'm sure Shajuanda and Tonya will touch on this more,
but for context, it's worth noting that politics and policy
around the carceral system and imprisonment swing like a
pendulum. Sometimes the powers that be are about reform and
other times they adapt tough on crime policies with serious
impact. In particular, Democratic President Bill
Clinton signed a Law Enforcement Act of 1994 as part of a
sweeping crime bill, and this overturned a section of section
of the Higher Education Act of 1965, which had been informed by
the Civil Rights Movement.
Essentially, progress made to increase access to education
was curtailed for anyone who is in prison, which as we
know it disproportionately impacts people of color and
people who are poor.
So currently the pendulum is swinging the other way as
the powers that be recognized if not the human
costs and the financial costs of mass incarceration.
And we are seeing some reform efforts. All that
being said, post 94 prison education programs relied on
private funding and the end sort of instrumental
grassroots efforts by people such as Shajuanda and Tonya.
Just wanted to give that context for for after 94 people in
prison had very very little access to education and then
when you went into prison you left prison the same way you
came out. So with that I'd like to open it up to, the first question
I'd like to ask.
And that is Shajuanda, would be in with you would be willing to
share a little bit about your background where you grew up in
whether or not college or higher education was in the picture at
all and and sort of how you.
Sort of arrived a place where you.
Pursued education
-Sure, so yeah. So little bit of background, I grew up in Tacoma
area. Born and raised in Tacoma and the hilltop area of Tacoma
is where my formative years. I spent my formative years, so my
preteen to teenage years mostly.
And so in big family, single parent household is just my mom
and us seven kids. And you know she's full time full time
working for Pierce Transit so you know, we essentially did not
have a lot of supervision. We spent time at the boys and girls
clubs or community centers in the neighborhood after school,
and so you know, even there was not like a bunch of supervision,
right? Like we often left those places so growing up I was, you
know, spent spent a lot of time
like. Out in in community and anyone familiar with Tacoma and
specifically the Hilltop in the 90's late 80's, 90's will know
like that. That area was high gang drug activity at the time
and, but as someone who was a young person, right?
You know, I looked at it. It just like the community I lived in where
we were just hanging out with friends, right? I wasn't looking
at my peers. As you know, problematic or troublemakers.
There's just like the the kids I grew up with right in the
neighborhood. And so anyways, Fast forward a few years I grew
up in that environment and I always knew as a young person,
that I was that I was always told. I guess that's the one
person I had exceptional skills or potential. I felt smart, but
because of, you know, lack of.
Support and I guess it I will even say like even in the school
system there were not many people that cultivated that in
in my life right? And so I after you know I I started to get in
trouble in in, in, in and out of gangs and juvenile detention
when I was early teenage years and my mom moved us to Lacey and
so and stop me if I'm talking about too much. If I'm giving
too much background so. But my mom moved us to Lacey Olympia
and that was a huge culture
shock for me. I did not feel received in school or among kids
there in a community an was really where I started to
experience racism in my life and so that was very difficult for
me. And so I every chance I got, I left from there on the bus or
friends, parents or friends who had taken cars and came and got
me. I was I was trying to get out there every time I could and
so that you know.
I started on a cycle of not engaging in education, not
engaging in community and as a person young person. I
didn't realize that that's what that was, right?
And so eventually I ended up, you know, creating a record for
myself and in and out of partial spaces as the young person and
ended up in the women's prison
and for. I guess so. I did go to college, let me back up. I did
go to college I had I got my GD when I was 16 years old after I
had my my son my only child an I knew that I could not provide a
life for him without having something doing something
different right when I was.
I wasn't able to go to school when I was pregnant at 15. They
had kicked me out in Lacey they wouldn't. They wouldn't let me
in school being pregnant and so then I went to when I and then I
couldn't work. So I was I was too young to get a job and so I
knew that something had to change. So when I was able to
get my GED I got it at TCC and then I started the fresh start
program there and started to kind of try to transition into
some of the college courses but at the same time I was still
like very involved and.
Some of the activities in in the streets, right in that street
life activity. And so I ended up getting in trouble time again. I
ended up going to prison and so when I was in prison the first
time, 'cause I went more than once, the first time on my
offenses or drug related. So the first time I went, I, you know,
was scared but I wasn't scared enough, right? Like I I went. I
was scared that I knew that this wasn't the life I wanted for
myself, but. I also knew that.
I didn't have access.
And so when I came home and I was faced with poverty and the
same environment I did not, I was not successful in that
environment. And so I I began selling drugs again and I went
back to prison. And this time I realized like I had to do
something different and so so during that that first time
going to prison I did enrolling in Community College
again and I went to Evergreen and I was in a bridge program.
But I br-, I guess during that time in the few months that I
did spend in school, it was it was. I think that getting to
school was difficult. Having a child like there were so many
other things that were very difficult for me to stay in
school that I was not able to like connect in there. There
were no opportunities for a resources. I would say to help
for me to be successful, right? So I wasn't getting any help
with paying for school I was on.
TANF an if you weren't doing a trade related program, they
would not pay for you. So a bowtech type program they would
not pay for you to just get like a transfer degree or anything
like that. So and I wasn't interested in that kind of
education right? I didn't want to just specifically stick to
trades. So anyway, I end up getting trouble going to prison
and this time. When I went I got a long sentence and.
While, I was in there. I realized like this is not the life I
wanted for myself for my child, and I had to do something
different and I started to think about my life differently and I
don't know. I hooked up with Tonya, which I had known Tonya
since I was a younger girl and we grew up in the same
environment, but we were not like we didn't hang out everyday
right now she's little bit older than me and so I didn't feel I
wasn't accepted in that. The with the older girls at that
time I was. I was still kinda young but we knew each other.
Our families know each other, you know and all that and so.
When I was in there I I started to see like the women who were
doing what was considered like positive time like they were
doing good time inside and because I was still kind of.
iffy or on the fence with if I wanted to do
the right thing or not.
I still was getting a little bit of trouble so I couldn't get in
and in there. If you if you get an infraction you're not allowed
into an education program, right? So it perpetuated this
idea of that. You're problematic, so you can't. You
can't get an education in my mind, so it's like I was upset
because I, you know, small things were keeping me from
getting into school and it was just like something that in my
mind, had you know, was like solidified that you know I
wasn't worthy of being in
school. Right, that the things that we're doing where allowing
me to be successful. And so Tonya and a couple of other
people like we're talking to me and said some kind of harsh
things about the way I was living my life. And that if I
didn't want to change for myself, I wasn't going to be
useful for my child, right? And so I started to internalize some
of those conversations and think about them and ways that I could
be better. And so I started taking a few classes once I was
out. Yeah, I stopped getting in trouble for a little bit.
I started taking some classes and once I was in
those classes I started to see things change for
myself and my thinking taking sociology and
psychology and other courses where I started to.
He how I was disconnected from community and how I had, you
know, rejected mainstream societal norms and that kept me
in in a mindset of not engaging right and and feeling unworthy
because of some of those things that I couldn't see systemic
oppression. And you know how those all contributed to me not
being successful and so anyway they won't take me much, much
more time so I'll let Ta go. -I just want to mention two things
I'd love to come back to, but Tonya
would. Would you share a little bit about yourself and
then maybe talk about what was available in in prison
initially in the way of education and and and how you
guys came to develop what you developed, which I think you
refer to initially as the Women's Village, right? And
then that grew into something else.
-Yeah, so um, thank you for having me and hello to
everybody out there. I also grew up on the hilltop Tacoma
And prior to the the early 80s or prior to about 1984 or 5
It was a very very.
Vital and thriving community of mostly people of color who have
been there since the mid 50s sixties and when the 80s came.
And I'm an 80s baby. Things changed with the with the influx
of illicit drugs especially especially crack cocaine and
then the phenomenon of gangs. All the guys that had grown up
with elementary middle school had become had.
Kind of eventually become inculcated into into the gang
life, which was very disorienting because it was
something that was novel. It was not there was, there was no
precedent for it in this area
before. And at the same time my mom was a had became addicted to
drugs, and are, are stability fractured. And so I had always
been a person since I can remember who loved school and it
has always been my stability.
But somehow this is like the the even kill of life on in
that community.
It fractured, it was, it was disrupted by by
those two influxes of.
Drugs and gangs and.
I you know, I was one of the one of the people who in advertently
I'm sure reaped the harm of that.
And in that trauma.
Came other trauma when I went to go live with extended family.
And at some point I can remember having this conversation with
myself. That said, if you don't care about me, I don't care
about you and what I was. I didn't realize that when I when
I disrupted my own or disconnected from my family that
I was also disconnected from my own identity and the things that
had made me who I was, it was, for I was an early teen and
so delved into the life of gangs and drugs selling drugs.
With intention, but it was, you know, response to trauma in my
life and in the midst of that. When I was 19, I enrolled in
school at Evergreen because I was going to. I had gotten
kicked out of Stadium, High School and so I started going to
an alternative school program and every time they would
mention college I would stop going. But because I I love the
engagement of learning, I would come back and then finally they
said Tonya look every time you leave. You just give us a little
bit more time to find something for you to do.
But you're too smart for this. Like I don't know, we don't know
what we don't know what to do
for you like. You run away and we don't want you to, but at
least we can dig up something for you to do. This is not the
kind of program for a student like you, and so am. I also had
gotten my GED when I was 16.
And. I let them.
I. Then I started to consider that maybe college was for me
because my dreams for myself when I was little had very
little to do with the reality that I live or what was inside
of my heart.
So they were like they were dichotomous at the time and I
was enrolled in school. I also had active my very first felony.
And um.
I also went to Evergreen in the bridge program. I was the
youngest student there. It's it's a program that was built
for working adults.
I was 19 at the time and.
My mind, I didn't know how to change my mind and so I was
living a life of academia and a life of a gang member who you
know who saw and it was.
It was a weird time for me, not in a bad sense really. It was a
time of opportunity that I didn't know how to take.
And around that time I ended up getting my first felony, like my
first serious felony. When I went to when I went to prison.
And I knew that when I got out of there, I didn't want. I
needed to have a job and I need to go to school. I didn't know
anything about a framework to, to, you know, interrogate my
social position. I know nothing
about. Like actually applying that to my life.
And so when I got out and the trauma was an
unanswered. Or, you know, undealt with then I went
back investing life, eventually an excuse me.
What I ended up getting a long sentence involved with a gang
member with a with a serious
reputation and. I can remember the first day that I went to
prison thinking I have no idea how to look forward.
Knowing that I have to do 20 years in this place like I
didn't think that I would be able to make it, I just did it.
An I did and at a certain point I realized that I wanted to be
my authentic self. I started training in a program called
NVC, which is Non Violent
Communication. And I knew that even if I wasn't at my very best
place, I don't want to always know exactly where I was at with
myself, and so that changed the way that I looked at myself and
gave me a vocabulary to convey my experience to the outer
world. And it helped me to draw power from myself to know
yourself, as to do that and.
The the climate when somebody has a long time in prison. If
you have over in the time gets keeps getting abbreviated but
at that time if you have more than seven years then you
weren't able to enter into the education program unless you
were getting your GED like that with state mandated and
also because of the 1994 crime bill we weren't able to access
Pell grants and states couldn't pay for any kind of funding for
prisoners except for vocational training.
And so we me and my friends inside kept finding ourselves on
the outside of academia in there, and the only there was
only one teacher who would take
us on. In the Human Services program, and she ended up
getting fired for it, and so we wrote letters to everyone we
could possibly think of that had anything to do with academic
instruction in the prisons, including the president of TCC
on down, and we wrote and we wrote. I think that energy
just started to align in other ways. I ended up reacquainting
myself with Doctor Gilda Shepherd who had been my
sociology teacher so many years
ago. And she was interested as we were just founding the
Women's Village and how she can collaborate with us. And so she
got you UBB to pay for our first accredited class for long
trimmers, which was just a revolutionary thing in that
prison at that time. And at the same time we were realizing that
the power that we had inside of us, regardless of whether or not
we were in prison, could be used. It could be channeled for
something that was greater than ourselves that would last longer
than us. And that will give the other women
in there a pathway to.
Fre-, not inner freedom like and that sounds kind of cheesy to
me, but the pathways to understanding who they were,
their positionality and and what that was like in relatively in
relation to the world.
In we were met with a lot of skepticism at first, but
Um, eventually, like if you believe something and you
will put your time and effort into you know that
belief then other people start to believe it to and.
That's how we started the women's Village, and that's
how we eventually started. The Freedom Education
Project we just yeah.
-So you've touched on a couple of things that. One thing that I've
noticed is that there seems to, systematically there seems to be
a lot of systems in place that want to ensure that that.
Certain populations.
Have less or limited access to the full range of what's
available in college with the TANF it's like going to evoke
VO tech or in prison it's like do sort of like you know vocational
or just limited range of opportunities or Human Services
type fields which are which. Which can be good, but it's
it's. It's limited right? -Yes. -It's not giving people the full
extent of what's available. Can you describe what what is? How
would you describe what the women's villages and then how
would you guys?
Describe what what Steps is today.
-So, and you're absolutely right about that that that drive
towards vocational and you know, like industrial college
education. And there's a there's like a whole belief system that
underpins that that.
You know people need to be useful in A and people who are
in our position were useful only in certain ways. The idea
of a liberal arts education, especially because it was out
of repressed because of that that crime bill.
Was something that was out of reach 'cause people are able to
get their college degrees in prison at one time.
But the women's village was
something that. Started both inside and outside of our the
community that was inside pretty prison imposed a mental health
counselor. His name is Rob Walker and he has several
process groups and he.
As he as he worked there over the years, he saw that there
were two different kinds of people in prison. People who
somehow changed an and thrived in prison, and there were some
people who whose lives were a continuation of the lives that
they let outside, you know, chaos. No stability and still
having behavioral problems that manifested prisoning. He said,
if you all have figured out how to thrive in prison, how can you
find a way to what is that? How did you do it? And then?
How can you find a way to compare that to the other half
of the people? Because at that time we were the most violent
prison in Washington state, including all the men's
prisons and you know, he said if he can convey that secret
to the other woman, then it will be more like living like
in a village than a prison. And so we we, we had
conversations for two years about that and created the
structure and.
Woman's Village was born and we had to work really hard
to get other people to share our vision.
Kind of on as a parallel track was the fact that we really,
really really wanted to go to school and we wanted to go to
school with her teacher in front of us. We didn't wanna take
correspondence, classes or Mail print based education and we
thought that we had a right to it. We thought that there was no
reason at. The reasoning that they use like sentence length
or or types of sentences or types of crimes should not bar
us from a good quality liberal arts education, and so we work
towards that. And then Gilda, who was an amazing who has
always been an amazing collaborator. Amazing.
She shamed other professors into coming into the women's prison
because because we're the only women's prison that holds all
different populations of women in Washington state that they
pass us up often.
And.
When when professors came there, they realized that there was a
certain spark that they had not seen in their classrooms on the
outside with their students on the outside, there was a there
was a curiosity. There was an interrogation, and there was a.
A couraged to speak up when we didn't know something because we
were hungry for that.
And there was a shared power in the classroom that was kind of
like magic, and so they organized for about 2 1/2 years
before they could get us an institution to accredit us.
And you know the the credibility that that you have to bring some
your imagination and help other people to believe it. And that
takes time. And it takes it
takes repetition. You have to say to the same people over and
over again before they can believe that that's something
that we imagine or envision can be possible, and yeah, so from
when when they came on this soon the scene, and probably about.
2010-11 it took them into 2013 to actually get the program
accredited, and then in 2016.
They had their first graduation. It was for people who graduated
with their associate's degree.
And then the next year was more.
- I want to ask Shajuanda a question to follow up on that, but I do
also want to put out into the universe. Is this idea that I
have a Green River, which is that I think it would be really
great. If. Community College Community College unions could
allow full time faculty to have a a course credit off from the
sort of 15 credits have teacher recorder where they could sort
of the opportunity to go and teach in one of the prisons. So
I just I'm going to keep putting that out there 'cause I think it
could come a reality one day too because I think as we as I think
you know you know the prison walls are there to keep people
in as much as they are to keep people out. And I think I want
to break that down in as many ways as we possibly can.
And you mentioned Gilda Shepherd who is a phenomenal,
phenomenal force who is a faculty at Evergreen and who
just directed her first film called. Since I've been down,
which is making the rounds second film, excuse me, Shajuanda
Shajuanda would you describe a little bit how what the first
classes were like and also speaking to the agency that the
women inside seemed to have in order to be sort of at the table
too. Move these events forward. It did not happen by the admin.
The DOC the Department of Corrections was not behind any of this.
It was sort of like very much led by by by the women.
-Yeah, so so the the women's village happened and and the
creation of febs happened very organically. In sence right?
And it started from the ground up right. It started from the
women organizing in that space, you know. And and with with some
collaboration with DOC staff which you know through Rob
Walker, mental health. Margaret Gilbert who was associate
Superintendent though that actually believed in what was
happening there, right. So but it was not a DOC like a
program that DLC had
established. And brought in no. Absolutely not and, and we
received a lot of pushback when trying to get things happening
in that space, right? And which let me just say had been
happening in men's prisons for years, right? UBB had been
happening in the men's prison. The Black Prisoners Caucus, and
a lot of other groups concerned. Lifers groups. All these things
have been happening for decades, actually. In some of those
prisons, right? But when the women wanted to organize in
develop these same or similar
programs? There was some some initial rejection to it right
and concern and. However, once it was established right, reduced
the violence in that in that space by half right we when we
started to address some of those issues in the real need to was
felt within that within that space in that carceral space
is that because it during 2008 right the recession had
happened. But when a lot of people had lost job the DLC, budget
was cut. And we felt those cutbacks right in in terms of
education. In terms of self enrichment programs that were
offered in that space, and that is when the violence rose right,
and so we started to see that change because we didn't. We
were not having access to space that where we were able to heal
and address, identify and address some of the trauma that
led us into that space. And so yeah. And then the second part
of that question was, I'm sorry, can you repeat that question?
-Oh goodness, I don't know you want it. You're you're doing
well I I don't remember the second half of my question to be
honest. I think was the role of women, but I could. I could I do
a follow up with which is which is about the the pathway from
from steps where you're taking oftentimes four credit classes
that what's the pathway like to exit to the outside world or the
free world as it were, to Community College and or for
your schools? And is that a streamlined process? Or it could
be more done there to help
people who are? In college, inside to transition to
continuing their education?- OK, I kind of remember your question
too. So yeah, what the process initially. So when it first
started this with your first question was when it first
started was classes like inside, right and what it was? What it
when it first started we were like Tonya said we were so
hungry. I remember one of the professors that came and teach
Stuart Smithers, who's to program program chair for
Religion Program. Religion chair at University Puget Sound
right? He came in to teach us a philosophy class, right? And
what was supposed to be?
On like 1/4 quarter quarterly type class ended up going on
for like I think 10 months we were in his class and he came
back every week because we were just so hungry and we we
started to, you know interrogate as Tonya said some
of these theories like you know.
What is what? What is free will and what is you know the you
know what are the Id and superego and ego and some of these. You
know, Freud, sorry, some of these theories and some of this
philosophy and like understanding like our place in
how we viewed where we were in that space, how society viewed
as an in, like what, what, that what those collaborations look
like, right? If you will. And
so. We the first classes were very interesting and all the
classes were after right like it, it continued and still
continues. Like Tonya said that space is magical when you start
to understand that when you can and you can like literally fill
yourself growing and changing in that environment where and to go
back a little bit to doctor shepherds film right there was
someone in there.
Who spoke in that film? I just watched the full the full film
the other day. There was a man in there who spoke Andre Parker.
He talked about anything that isn't growing is dead, right?
And that and that includes anything mentally right. If
you're not growing your mental capacity then you are mentally
dead. In a sence right? And and even if it's in the very
smallest of ways, and so there are some people who through
trauma or mental illness, right, are not growing in that space and
so. Essentially are not are not able to flourish and and when we
see that and we see that happen,
and. End. On the outside of the prison, an on the inside of
prison, right? And a lot of those same things are happening.
Violence is happening, drug use is happening. Some of those same
things that gets in extension of society. And as you put Mark
that you know it is designed to keep people out. It is designed
to keep people out in us from coming out as well and staying
out and being healthy. The initially the idea was the
rehabilitation. Well if people haven't been in, and Tonya said this
many times that if you've never been habilitated in the first
place right? If you were never.
Able you were never taught to.
Interact and engage in society in a healthy way. If you have
experienced extreme amounts of trauma compounded by addiction
and other forms of abuse, right that you know, lent to whatever
behavior right that that took you into that space, and then
those things happen again. Prison as a traumatizing space,
you get in there and you often endure lots of trauma through
your own self inflicted trauma. You know, sorry, did I freeze?
-No, you're good, you're good.
-Goodness
-Shajuanda we've watch your video, but what you're speaking
about makes me think about how lot of reentry
programs around the country. You know the idea of re-entry seems
almost like a misnomer. I feel like the "re" part needs to be in
parentheses because oftentimes it's entry for the first time
rather than re-entry.
Tonya, would you be willing to touch on a little bit about?
Why, why I want to make sure I cover some of the questions that
are coming from the community that were asked initially?
This the idea of the increase of women being
incarcerated generally and.
Would you be able to speak to why?
There's an increase in women being incarcerated in the US.
-Yeah, so so from what I understand, because this is not
something that was part of my like a detailed part of my my
academic research or even curiosity to a certain extent.
But women, the pathways for of women in men coming to prison
are very different. Um, usually men come because of antisocial
behavior. Or, you know,
mindsets. And women come because they are with somebody who has
antisocial behavior or mindset. So usually women's convictions
are connected to the men in their lives and those
relationships are often fraught
with. Trama, domestic violence. You know,
things that are that continue to perpetuate
disfunctionality in their lives, and.
You know, I think about how.
One of our superintendents wondered why women got such such
sentences that were pretty much disproportional to men.
Sorry bout that. I have a lisp.
And
She wondered if.
We could consider it if it was because society were was mad at
the people who are supposed to be the nurtures and and you know
our social position where we mad because our mothers and
daughters and sisters and.
Who have certain labels?
Were committing felonies like is, it was our punishment
commensurate to the ways that we did, we fall from the labels of
positionality as women.
And you know, the reality is that the dysfunction in our
society keeps women going to prison. But the dysfunction in
the carceral system. First, the criminal justice system. First,
social systems. Let's just get out of that. But social systems
that fail that introduced people in lower social,
economic and political positions.
To that system and then it kind of perpetuates that that
gerbil on wheel cycle that happens to people who are
subject to the dysfunctionality's of all those
systems and so.
And women you know, by and large bare the brunt of those
dysfunction. This dysfunctionalities is more than men do.
They and their children.
And that's how they perpetuate themselves. It's like.
Women and men who have like, children of alcoholism.
Are often more often Alcoholics. Is there that same kind of idea
is. Is it prevalent in children whose parents have experienced a
criminal justice system?
-Thank you I want I want to. I want to pause if I can and just
extend our gratitude for both of you. Sharing your lived
experience so graciously with us. We're blessed to have you.
And I can't thank you both enough. And I thought in the
last 10 minutes or so we could focus on in addition to whatever
questions come up it. Would you be willing to share what you're
up to now in terms of your life, whether it be vocational stuff
or just a personal growth.
-Absolutely, I'll go first because I don't know. My
Internet keeps seems a little bit spotty right now, so I don't
know what will happen right now. I'm currently working as a
policy advocate and community organizer with the Community
Washington Community Action Network, so trying to help
others and community specifically marginalized and
disenfranchised community use their political voice and
understand their place right and engage in policy advocacy in
that way. And also I am working with the Freedom Education
project with Feds, an project capacity right now that may
change Tonya and I are doing a collaboration to recreate a
structure very similar to the Women's Village outside and. So
we had our first meeting that was phenomenal. It was amazing
to reconnect with women that are out here the 15 or so women that
we had. Honest call last week were all out here. All college
graduates all out here working in these systems. And to undo
this work and harm that has been felt in our lives for for a long
time and so that that was amazing. I'll let Tonya share
a little bit more about that part of the National Council for
formerly incarcerated and formerly incarcerated women and
girls. I'm still connected and doing work with them.
And many other, like smaller engagements and community as
well. But yeah, that's that's what's up with me right now.
-You guys hear me. OK, So what what's up with me? I work for
the Freedom project. It is a nonprofit that goes inside
prison, does nonviolent communication. It's been inside
the prison systems of Washington and you know internationally.
Actually for several decades and in the last decade is taking a
turn in its focus from just delivering mindfulness programs
to do. Making sure that people are paying attention to the mass
incarceration to anti-oppression work and to being a part of the
community that needs to be upheld. That needs to be
strengthened and that usually experiences the impacts of of.
Of mass incarceration at a
disproportionate rate. Most of the people that I work with are
men and women who have been incarcerated for significant
amounts of time. And really we just uphold people who have been
justice impacted. Whether it's somebody who was directly
incarcerated or their family who also are victims of of this
carceral system. Criminal justice system as well an.
Also I I have been really involved with Delta in making
sure that the film is getting the recognition it deserves. I
think it is something that.
I mean, Gildas, Gildas, eye for what needs to be done is this. I
unparalleled in my own estimation, but she sees things
that are so forward thinking that people like she's been
working on this film for 12 years and so.
Like she knew that this was going to be a real touchpoint
for change for a paradigm shift in in our community. In in our
in our country, and.
She believes that a lot of things that are are deemed just social
problems are public health
crises. And when you think of things in terms of if he if
you just shift your perspective and that you know
that we have a responsibility to.
To impacting the positive way the the public health and.
It makes it a thing that puts everything at stake at all
people at stake, so I've just been with them and I've
trying to stay Covid free because I'm over at my grandfathers
house often and it's important
he's he's old. And we don't want to get him sick, and so
you know you've been really trying to maintain our health,
but you can't. You can't outrun a cold, so. -Absolutely
absolutely we do have we have a question from one of our
college instructors here, so we're going to Kirsten and would
like to unmute and ask your question.
-Sure, hello and thank you so much for everything. I don't
know this is amazing it and love. I could just listen to you
both talk for hours. I think I just appreciate so much the
richness both like the conceptual richness and the
lived experience that you're bringing. Love it. My question
basically is that as college instructors you know, I feel
like it's part of my job.
To affirm my students Identity's and their experiences, the
knowledge that they already carry. You know the skills that
they're carrying into my classroom and I also have to
balance that with leading them forward academically and helping
them build more knowledge and skills. I would just love to
hear any advice you have about how to do that. You know how to
build a space where those things
happen together. Thank you.
-Now I'm so so one thing you know that is like really for me it's
really important. Is that shared power dynamic right? And that in
in it and also creating a collaborative learning space
right? Is that we don't just teach, you know, we also learn
right anytime we're entering a space with others and so it's
not like this. Top down you know, or you know and even.
Many of the professors that come inside and teach with webs you
know we when we do teacher trainings and stuff, we talked
to them about. You know anytime there's not a shared power
dynamic, there is an abuse of power that can happen right? And
so we just have to be mindful of that an also you know. Just
really being culturally competent and engaging students
and understand like where there at culturally and helping them
to grow in that space outside in respect to those cultural
differences right? And so I won't take up much more time,
but I think those are the.
Some of the important things to focus on and that will help and
aid in creating that space.
-So my dog in the background drinking water. Hopefully you
can hear him so well. Will ask the question, will doubt ask the
question that I want to speak to but also curious about the
women's Village that you're sort of establishing the outside. If
there is a role for for people in the community outside of the
immediate community to play in terms of supporting your
efforts, I think that's something that I think folks at
Green River would love to play a role in or part of because I
think that one of the things
that. I want to do an establishing.
Working with my peers like Kirsten and Doctor Banks is to
have a reentry program that basically is inviting the larger
community to Green River people who might not see themselves as
students or have the potential to recognize that they have the
potential to come to Green River and feel supported. So will ask
the question Tonya, what you answered, but I wanted to give
she wanted a chance to answer as well, but maybe even to think
about the work you're doing now, but he asks, is there something
community colleges can do to bring formally incarcerated
folks to college? What changes can we make structurally in
personally? Um?
And so and so thinking about that, but also thinking about
the work that we're doing in terms of the Women's Village
on the outside. What ways can we collaborate and partner
with with with with with the communities that you've got?
Yeah, that's a lot.
What is another way? Are there barriers that I know that
there are barriers that exist, but how do? How do people who
are formally incarcerated see college as a barrier rather
than a pathway?
-Am I? -Go head.
-OK, sure, sorry and I just wanted to say that I do have a
hard stop. I have another engagement at 1:00 o'clock but
I so definitely a lot that we can do. I think sometimes
oftentimes in community we you know Community feels
disconnected from folks inside and folks inside feel
disconnected from community right? And so creating that
space if you don't already have like a reentry navigation
program that's up and running. Collaborating with programs
like febs or UBB to help students outside. I'm also
doing a project I forgot about this part with.
The reentry navigator at Evergreen where they have
created a transitional housing program to where students will
can transition out of prison to come in on to the campus.
And I know I don't know that community colleges have that
you know capacity. However, like engaging in some of those
ways and an helping specifically to the program
with the women village, we always in our hope hopeful
that Community will connect with us in those ways. Right
colleges.
And folks who just want to jump in and just help us to, you
know, figure out because that is a huge part. That disconnect
is often why people resort to, you know, criminal behavior if
you will. Sorry, you know, for lack of better term, but
behavior that is not within mainstream societal norms.
Sometimes out of survival too. So, so that I'll just leave it
at that 'cause we gotta couple minutes.
-But also very quickly like to share, if I may.
My screen, this is share.
As we were finishing up, I want to provide information
for people.
Green River is developing a reentry program for its
impact in forming crust rated people and by system impacted
that could mean raised in the raised by the state.
arested, convictions without incarceration or directly
impacted by a loved one being inside. We invite you to find
and build community with us. And so I've shared my
information on the screen there.
Mostly because I want people to sort of have people find,
find community with themselves. We want to support the community,
but I recognize what. But you both touched on it was it was
women stepping up and helping other women. You know, peer
that sort of peer based sort of.
Support that seemed to be crucial to success and
flourishing.
Thank you both. We just we have literally one minute
left to any last words that you want to share with us.
-Yeah, I just I just think that the collaboration where all
people were all people. We all have curiosity. We all have this
functionality. We all have things that you know, help us
arise and those things that like bring us down. And if you.
If you can answer if we can just remember that that in all and
all systems political, economic, social, that are what's at stake
is. Is about all of us. It's not
going to just be. A few of us and so.
To be brave in the spaces where you might fear saying
the wrong thing, be brave in spaces where you might
feel different or you think other people are different.
If we can stop Othering each other and just share our
kindness and curiosity in a way that is authentic, then that's
more than half way towards building community and just
being authentic and being
curious. And being brave.
-There's a question. Sorry. -Go head
-There's a question on here that I want to ask this to
answer. It says where what makes us choose. Education Path is
because while in that space one thing in out outside is that
being informed helps transform, right? Education is
transformational and once you understand the world like you
know we start taking sociology. Like I said so psychology those
once you begin to understand the world and systems
you begin to better understand your place in it right? And then
as Tonya said like then you.
Also have a duty to help other understand that as well, and pay
that forward and and at the same time understanding like how
people came before you helped you in honoring that and its
full capacity. And so yeah, I really enjoyed this. I gotta
jump off. -Thank you Shajuanda I do want to thank you Mark, for
inviting me an into this space and I look forward to further
conversations. Thank you. -Thank you both. We really appreciate
it too. -I do too. Thank you so much and I hope you guys. I hope
we made a little bit of sense.
-Absolutely, absolutely.
Good luck at your next meeting Shajuanda, thanks.