Welcome everyone once again, thank you so much for being here
with us today. My name is Marwa Al Mousawi and I'm the director
for the Office of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion and the Co
chair for the Green River Diversity and Equity Council and
I'm really pleased to welcome you all today. On behalf of
GDEC, ODEI Green Rivers Reentry Program and the one book program
I'm really happy to welcome you Once again to our third
diversity educational series for
this quarter. Our topic of conversation today is around
retribution, an reform in the criminal justice system. So I
want to take a moment to recognize my colleagues.
Benjamin Lealofi chair of the Diversity educational series,
Jody Segal, lead for the one book program and faculty members
Mark Barrington. Kristen Higgins and Doctor Jashon Banks with
the reentry program and I also want to introduce our Native
American peer Navigator and the.
President of the Native American Student Organization
to do a land acknowledgement for us and then faculty.
Member Mark Barrington will go ahead and introduce our
respected speaker for this afternoon and we will also be
hosting a question and answer session at the end of this
event, so I'll turn it over to Tehya.
-Thank you Marwa. As Marwa mentioned, I'm the Native
American peer Navigator and I'm just gonna be reading a Land
acknowledgement that I wrote up a paper, so I swear I'm not
avoiding eye contact. I would like to 1st give my thanks and
respect to the Muckleshoot tribe for allowing us to be on this
land as well as the other tribes whose land whose land others may
be standing on from their homes. Secondly, I would also like to
thank the tribes who may have occupied these lands, throw
history whose stories are untold
erased. And forgotten thank you
all. Thank you both the land and the tribes for allowing us to
occupy the space with you and start the work we're doing
today. Thank you for being so forgiving of the injustices that
were done to your ancestors and continue to be done in present
day lives. I would like to recognize how important it is
that we're having this conversation when writing and
speaking a land acknowledgement. We are engaging in a
conversation about the history of the land and the people whose
lives are tide to it. A conversation with the
Muckleshoot tribe as well as the
surrounding tribes. With the students of Green River with the
land itself with our peers, and especially with ourselves as a
college, we as a college cannot foster meaningful and beneficial
relationships with those we serve. If we do not recognize
the history of where they stand, nor how it affects them today,
helping her individual communities starts with our
past. The opportunity is still not given to the Native American
population as the connected people of Total Island. It is
our responsibility to support our First Nation family because
we are all connected or histories all intertwine on one
of the smallest scales. We're all human beyond decency and
formalities were connected on a much larger scale. When our
bodies retired, they fall into Mother Earth where we recycled
into new life. That part of us is moved around the globe as
Mother Earth changes the story of lives far and wide are
embedded in nature all around
us. Even as we exist today, so much of our lives is being
recorded and where we stand, our connection with one another goes
much further than what I could ever speak of. And the Earth is
the foundation for the connection. By continuing to
have this conversation, which begins with land
acknowledgement, we're taking the first step in change as
leaders of Green River. It is our job to recognize this
continuously, build from it and support one another through it.
Diversity, equity and inclusion expense much further than our
interpersonal relationships. Realizing this is how we truly
build the change. In our relationship with the Native
American communities and our students for the better.
Thank you.
-Thank you Marwa Al Mousawi and Benjamin Lealofi cosponsors of
Jeremiah's talk today.
I'd like to send a huge thank you also to Jody Siegle Green
River College faculty librarian who is behind
incredible range of programming in conversation
associated with the Green River one Book program and
the program itself. This wouldn't be possible without
her labor. Thank you, Jody.
I'd like to quickly knowledge the Greenville College has a
reentry program in its nascent stage, but if you are a student
or interested in being a student at Green River College and are
formally incarcerated or system impacted, please reach out that
say the same goes for staff and faculty. Would love to help you
find and build community here at
Green River. Now I have the honor of introducing Jeremiah
Bourgeois. I'd like to share briefly from his website and
then a personal connection.
Jeremiah Bourgeois is a journalist, legal scholar,
formally incarcerated person and matriculating law student. In
1992, at age 14, he became one of the youngest children in the
United States to receive a mandatory sentence of life
without the possibility of parole, and the second youngest
person to receive the sentence in the history of Washington
state. Following the US Supreme Court's decision in Miller
versus Alabama in 2012, which the Court declared that imposing
mandatory sentence of life without parole on juveniles
violates the constitutional prohibition against cruel and
unusual punishment. Jeremiah was resentenced to an indeterminate
term of 25 years to life, which made him eligible for parole
while in prison. Jeremiah committed himself to higher
education, notwithstanding a sentence that meant he would die
behind bars through independent means he earned a bachelors
degree in legal studies in Criminology, graduating Magnum,
Kumle Audi. He also utilizes education to tutor prisoners
working to earn their GED's and became an advisor to the
University Beyond bars. A nonprofit that enables prisoners
retain a college education at Washington State Reformatory. I
first learned of Jeremiah and his writing from Washington
State prisoner sorry Washington state prison writer Arthur
Longworth, who recommended him read him. Jeremiah incredible
Writer, who is a regular contributor to the Crime Report
and is collected essays make up the extraordinary ordinary
prisoner. Please join me in welcoming Jeremiah Bourgeois to
Green River College. -If I'm given the opportunity
for release.
Not only will you not regret.
The fact that you gave me that opportunity.
But I hope that you'll be glad one day that you did.
I'm just so sorry man, I wish none of this would
have ever happened, And.
I'm truly sorry.
I was born in West Seattle. I used to dance.
Tap danced when I just think I started at about
age 5. Dance till about age 11. I was also in the
ballet and jazz. He had the most positive attitude, always
smiling. Quick learner was it delightful happy child.
An entertainer at TOCA. A comedian. He was smarter than
me. He always had more friends than me. I actually used to look
up to JJ even though he was my little brother. Loved his
brothers, loved my mom. We used
to go. Camp in Benda Disneyland went to Catholic
school football. We went to vacations every year. Church
every Sunday seemed normal to me, but after my parents got
divorced, my life changed.
In that.
I wasn't happy anymore. That was the biggest timing point. It
affected my relationship with my mom because I didn't trust her
anymore. They resented the idea that Mom go rid of our dad.
She's gonna leave us so we better find a way to survive
without her. There was nothing she can tell me really that I
was listening to. I just did what I wanted to do and they run
away from home. They started living in High Point selling
drugs. We were so small.
You're dealing with adults when you're selling drugs would be
out there. The wee hours in the morning with the Grimiest people
on Earth. You just always knew to be wary and beyond guard. So
we learn you have to keep a pistol on you just to protect
yourself. He just always followed his brother. He
followed him everywhere. It was
almost as if. Bebe was a father figure. I started couch surfing
at about 12 and a half, 13 paying crackheads to live in
their apartments or going to get the West Seattle and pay someone
to do that for me or sleeping in abandoned car or just it. All of
my different friends houses in High Point. JJ ultimately was
with me at when I was about.
Nearly 13 so like 12 for JJ. 12 13 right around there.
When my brother was found guilty within 10
minutes, I was at
the store. Opening fire. I was 14 years old when this
happened, I knew that.
I was gonna get locked up. I thought he's only 14 years
old. Who is going to watch him? Who was going to protect
him? At that time I was probably 100 and.
25 pounds, maybe 130, about 5'5" here. All the stories of what
goes on and what happens. And if you know you may have to die
here, you quickly come in your mind that there's a certain way
I'm going to live in here. He did things to people just to
show that I am not the person that you need to mess with
surviving in prison at 14 15 when I was in Shelton.
It's really just being hypervigilant. You fight to a
point where they would knock him off for six months,
In isolation for fighting. If I could say something to 14 year
old JJ would be.
Just go home.
Your mother loves you.
You just can't see it right now.
And things are going to get better.
Just go home.
People are trying to help you. You just can't realize it right
now. After this 10 years he
buckled down. Of course, with age and the realization that
this is it.
He changed. When I was in I am you. There was a guy he had told
me that he was he had beat his
appeal. And was about to get out. He got about seven or eight
years taken off of his sentence. An ask him who is lawyer was
'cause at the same time, I was, I just got a new attorney.
And he told me he had did it
himself. And I was so shocked that he had managed to file a
legal brief and actually win something. Just seeing what he
had managed to do and telling me that he thought I can do the
same thing. I just decided to
start. Looking into how to take college courses. That's when
everything went up. He made tremendous change. He's a sharp
guy for what he's been able to learn. He's known to what he was
25 years ago. He's the first inmate ever to be published in a
law review Journal. That said something what is kept him going
and not seeking drugs or being depressed and seeing the light
of the tunnel, is education. Really, it was just.
I can keep busy keep my mind active and help guys who need
help with a legal problem.
Most.
I look forward to having him.
In life and God give me a few more years to be around him.
I would love that JJ is brilliant. He is loving. He is
caring. He is a listener. He will try to heal someone's
emotions if they're feeling bad. JJ has finally found his faith
again. Absolutely strong, motivated, determined, loving. I
ran across a unit supervisor
that. Used to work in the IMU throughout all my custodial
assaults. And
The shock on his face when he
realised. I was on the cusp of getting my bachelors degree.
Ah, that's the look I want.
That look like that's incredible. I knew this guy. He
was a dirt bag. Trust me, he was violent. He was the worst and
for him to have seen me at my worst back then and now. See me,
what I'm doing now. That's what I want to continue when I get
out there, so somebody else will get a chance who?
Can do the same thing, but just doesn't have the opportunity. JJ
If I could have you sit in front of me and express what I'm about
to say, I would tell you if you were right here right now. What
I would tell you, you have shown me integrity. You've shown me
strength and you have shown me patience. Other people have
given up. They have felon off on drugs but you were the
inspiration for them and now they see what you did.
And you actually motivate them to be better now people don't
realize you are an inspiration not only to the people locked
up, but to me and your family out here. You've also shown me
that it does not matter where you are at. You can better
yourself. When you get out. You have a support system not only
within love but within finance is an within a household.
JJ I love you. I'm sorry that we haven't had much time together.
And we can make up for it with a better life that is
coming. I am here waiting for you. Lord works in mysterious
ways and even when we were little Mom said do not ever give
up on the power of prayer. And here we are with the possibility
that you may get out.
Look at that. I love you JJ.
I'm truly sorry for what I've done and taken from you.
I'm just so sorry man, I wish none of this would
have ever happened, And.
That I could somehow change it for you.
I'm sure they sorry.
I knew this guy.
He was a dirt bag. Trust me.
He was violent.
He was the worst.
Not only what I was doing before I came to prison, but what I was
doing for so many years while I
was confined. And now see me what I'm doing now. That's
what I want to continue when I get out there.
If I could say something to 14 year old JJ would be.
Just go home.
Your mother loves you.
You just can't see it right now.
Just go home.
Oh And things are going to get better.
People are trying to help you. You just can't realize it right
now.
He changed I look forward to having him in
life and God give me a few more years to be around him.
I would love that.
If I can give back to the world, I think just being able to be an
example of why it was worth.
Given a second chance to somebody like me.
-You know, I.
The strange thing about that video, which was.
Taken in 2017 prior
to. My first parole. Hereinafter I had served 25
years in prison is.
I wasn't released.
And.
I think it speaks to.
The nature of the criminal justice system, when.
Reform. Ultimately.
Is incapable. Of triumphing over retribution.
And I think that remains the state of the criminal justice
system at its core.
Had you sent people to prison
And. Had a list of things that you would like
rehabilitation to do if you took a violent person.
Somebody who didn't work.
They sold drugs.
They were angry.
And they posed a risk to public
safety. And you had a checklist of like like a wishlist. Here's
what we would like rehabilitation to do.
And you made it is aspirational as you can think of. I
want I want the prison to be able to turn this person
from being a violent person into somebody that actually teaches
nonviolent communication. I want somebody who hung around gang
members an engaged in criminal activity to become a mentor to
gang members and try to convince people to desist from criminal
activity. I want to take somebody who dropped out of the
6th grade and have them not only get a bachelors degree without
any state support, but to graduate Magna Cumme Laude
Matter fact I want this person to actually somehow find career
while he's in there.
Matter fact.
Let's he needs to be a scholar. We want the system to produce
scholars who have somehow notwithstanding their
confinement in the nature of prison education. But they have
managed to somehow.
Hone their intellect to such an ability that their publishing in
academic journals, in writing scholarly papers. That's what we
want the system to do, and then you know will consider letting
them out. That's not how it works when it comes to
retribution, because somehow
I managed to do those things.
Even though I believed I was going to die in prison for the
crimes I committed as a child, and in spite of all that, I sat
in front of a parole board.
And they decided that it was more likely than not that I
would reoffend if released.
And that's a scary thing because.
While I was devastated and my family was.
It made me wonder.
Who are they letting out if this? If this? If this is the
bar that you can't even get out
on. What kind of decision making is being made when it
comes to these administrative parole bodies and it speaks to
the nature of arbitrary and
capricious decision-making? That is filtered through a perceptual
lens of retribution.
I committed a terrible crime.
The fact that I was a child when I did it does not take away the
pain. To the family of the man that I killed.
Their entire life trajectory was completely.
Altered because of what I did I recognize all of this.
He was an immigrant.
Who worked hard. He came from a war torn country.
He and his associates, both all from this same country,
manage to start a small business, and they had dreams
and hopes and the foundation to make it all happen. And
because of what I did.
The family was destroyed.
They were so impoverished.
That the mother, the widow could not even take care of
her children anymore and had to have a relatives and
friends take them.
They couldn't even grow up together. They were all
across the country she was pregnant at the time.
One of the children ultimately ended up going
to the penitentiary.
These are serious harms.
And there's nothing I can do to take it back, no matter how much
I wish I could.
But those harms, or why it is so difficult for decision
makers to believe that someone
like me. Should have a second chance.
Notwithstanding the fact that I was 14, these are serious harms.
And to a certain extent.
There's even a measure of.
Why does he have all of these opportunities after what he did?
And very little time goes by where I don't look at
how my life is becoming. I got a college education.
The victim, son didn't he went
to prison. Undoubtedly in large part because of what I did.
I'm going to law school.
Arguably I have the world.
In front of me with countless opportunities in
all of those opportunities have been taken away.
Because of my actions.
And so I'd like to bring that point up right from the very
beginning because. Even someone like me.
Who believes in reform? Who knows first hand not only
through my own transformation, but the transformation that
countless other men who I've met throughout my 27 years
confinement. The changes they've made. Those changes are real.
And I believe the criminal justice system should.
Find it within itself.
To finally say.
Enough. You have changed.
Mercy is a real thing.
You can benefit society and we are going to give you an
opportunity to not only.
Cease being a burden on the state economically, but somehow
be able. To better the community with the actions that you do out
there. I want that.
There are a lot of people that want that.
But that does not take away from
the legitimacy. Of the arguments of those who have been harmed.
Those who are advocating for crime victims.
It doesn't delegitimize their
position. And it doesn't make them bad or wicked.
Far from it.
They have been hurt and they are trying to do right and I have
caused hurt. And now I'm trying to do right with the opportunity
that I now have out here.
And.
I look at what I'm doing out here now I.
I volunteer.
Countless hours. With
non profits. Even though I'm
trying to juggle. Law school
I'm involved in several criminal justice work groups where we're
trying to find.
Means to get other people who have been sentence to long
periods of confinement.
And whose imprisonment no longer serves the interests of justice.
Trying to get them.
The same opportunity that I've had, and.
It's exhausting.
But if not me.
Then who?
There are plenty of people who are doing this work.
And unfortunately, the notoriety of my case and.
The transition that I made.
It's just put me in a position where I'm actually
invited to speak.
At a panel like this.
When there are countless other people who can speak just
affectively but because I do have these opportunities, I feel
it would be a disservice to everyone that I've left behind
in prison. And all the men and women across this country who.
Are caught up in the criminal justice system and.
Retribution.
Has made it.
Almost impossible for them to change the trajectory of their
lives. And. You know all of these
stores are unique.
Whether it's someone like Miss
Burton who? Had her son killed and.
The trauma of that led her to get involved in drugs and
caught up in the criminal justice system.
That's her story.
There's no.
Typecast character?
For people who might end up with handcuffs behind them,
an in a prison cell, and it doesn't matter if you guilty
or innocent.
So many people. Bryan Stevensons
fought for. The Innocence Project.
Every one of those peoples stories just forms what I like
to conceive of as a tapestry of injustice. And it's not only
injustice with respect to how innocent people could be shunted
into prison, or.
How prosecutors sometimes can seem willfully blind to
evidence, showing that an individual is innocent as
opposed to guilty.
It's a
tapestry. That
It's difficult to even see.
Up close, you have to take a
step back. In order to truly perceive what this system has
become, and. You know, I watched that video that.
Began. This segment
an. One of the things that I didn't notice until a friend of
mine watched it was my facial expression as I was.
Apologizing to the victims family.
I think I could count how many times I cried throughout those
27 years of confinement on both
hands. And it was strange looking at my face up close
'cause at the same time that I'm
feeling grief. I'm trying to
control. My emotions.
My eyes are pivoting to the people in the room 'cause I
don't want them to see any weakness. I'm trying to control
my facial expressions.
That is the nature of imprisonment
when. Even. Humanity becomes so removed that
you try to fight against it.
And.
They talk about.
Institutionalization, but as much as I heard that phrase.
When you've lived your life in an institution, you can't
understand what institutionalization really is.
I. Didn't realize.
Just how institutionalized I was until I was released from
confinement. After 27 1/2 years
I was. 42 years old and had been confined since I was 14.
And. There's just things that never even occur to me.
Ah.
Showing affection to the woman I love. And then I'm
going to marry.
It just.
Reaching out and holding a hand.
A caress on the arm.
It's just most of the times it doesn't even occur to me.
Ah.
I have panic attacks that began.
Shortly before I was finally released and I have no doubt.
It was really just.
The fact that I now have an opportunity to be freed.
Yet now I understood just how easily an arbitrarily it can be
taken from me.
That stress started producing.
Attacks that almost present like
psychosomatic seizures. And I thought when I was
finally released that all of that was over.
I still have them.
I've had them in the parking lot of Gonzaga Law School.
I've had them in the classroom.
At the law school.
I've had them in parking lots. Well, I'm just listening to
music and smoking a cigarette.
And.
A lot of times they are precipitated by.
What I might be thinking about in the moment?
Professor Barrington talked about a man named Art Longworth.
He was 18 years old.
Grew up through foster care.
Was shunted out of the system at age 18, And.
Ultimately, committed a terrible
crime. And since then has spent almost 40 years confined.
And there's times I can just be thinking about someone like him.
A man who grew up in foster care being neglected and abused.
Before he was even a preteen.
And this man is somehow became a celebrated author.
Learned Spanish.
Understands.
Chinese.
But they don't want to let Arthur Longworth out of prison.
And I could think about somebody like him as I'm sitting there.
In the free world.
And I will fall out.
And have a psychosomatic seizure.
And.
That speaks to my institutionalization in trauma.
Because.
There's many people who believe
that. The best thing to do after going through all that was just
move on with your life.
Separate yourself from
that existence. Relive in these traumatic experiences
is just causing further trauma.
Just move on your in law school.
You've got to try to make a
living. You don't got time to be going to these events going
to protests. Going to speak at
hearings. You did your part.
And I don't know if they're right.
And we're just going to see.
In the long term, whether that advice was actually the best
course with respect to my
psychological health. But
It's difficult to be happy knowing that so many men.
That I was confined with who I know have changed and who I know.
Not only are reformed.
Not only that, they live with regret and completely
understand the harm that they caused to get themselves
imprisoned.
But who I know can be assets out here.
Whether it was.
Being a supportive father and
husband. Being able to provide for their family.
Being able to be a coach.
A mentor.
Or just a valuable employee.
There are so many people who I know personally who
fit that category who are going to die in prison.
And it's hard.
To enjoy what to many people perceive to be success.
When all of the people you spent
your life with. And you watched change as you were changing.
And no. That the only reason I'm sitting here is
because of a fortuitous.
US Supreme Court decision.
And the advocacy work that Brian Stevens said did pushing.
The issue. That mandatorily confining juveniles?
To sentence is of life without parole is the cruel and
unusual punishment. But for the fact that I was 14 and not
18 like author Longworth.
I would be there.
In Washington state Reformatory with him right now?
Walking laps Talking about different articles were
working on.
Every year Watching the public access station.
As legislators.
Argue about criminal justice reform and watching bills. Get
shot down and watching other peoples clemency hearings live
and watch them get denied.
That would be my life.
But for the fact.
That I had a 48 month age
difference. With Arthur
Longworth. And countless others who remain confined because of
an arbitrary line that somehow
says. If you're a minor.
You may.
You just may.
Deserve a second chance at some point.
But if you're old enough to vote.
But still too young to drink.
You will spend the rest of your life in prison for
committing crimes. Far less more serious than the one
that led me to spend 27 years of my life in prison.
And.
You know, I don't know how long.
It's going to change for.
Or how long it's going to take
for? This all to change its.
It's really difficult.
To see the humanity.
In people.
With that stigma.
Of being a felon?
Of being a convict.
And.
Mercy's easier.
To talk about.
As an abstract concept than it is to put into practice.
And I tell you it's.
I'm starting to get it now that I've been freed because.
I look at the countless homeless people.
And I just don't know what to make of it.
Yet.
After a year of being free.
I see how easy it
is. To become.
Desensitized
From what obviously is a human catastrophe going on out there?
And this homelessness crisis.
That is out there today.
Has existed for far shorter time than mass incarceration.
And when I look at it from that perspective, I see how someone
could watch the nightly news.
And see a story about a man on death row for almost 30 years.
Parents have died.
His wife left him.
He's in there for brutal rape and murder, he's hated.
And he, Is freed because of DNA evidence.
And they cut to a commercial and everybody goes about
their business. It doesn't even we've become immune.
And that is.
It's shocking but understandable.
I guess you can get used to anything.
You can get used to seeing.
A teenager with a backpack.
Downtown in the cold.
And ask you for a Cup of coffee as you're going into Starbucks
and just act like you don't even see that person.
To immediately come up with a different bunch of
reasons why that person must have done something.
To deserve being in that position.
And that person hasn't even committed a crime, so I get how.
And why?
Legislators would even be arguing about.
Should somebody who was
wrongfully convicted. Be compensated.
That's a debate. That's an argument I heated one.
But I get it.
That is.
The most telling part of re entry for me is now I'm getting
it. I thought all those years when I was in prison.
That
People just didn't care like this was a willfully
conscious decision.
To not care about.
Mass incarceration.
Innocent people being confined.
Abuse and neglect.
Taking place.
By the people that we've charged simply.
To prevent those who have been incapacitated from leaving.
And yet They treat them so viciously. I get it's not that
they don't care, I don't think.
There was something about.
This world that I have re entered.
That just.
Almost takes away people's
capacity. To care anymore.
Or to think that anything you do as an individual will
actually change.
That systematic changes impossible.
That it's just.
It is what it is.
And.
You know, I can't.
You can't get mad at.
Something that. It's just there. You can't be angry at the sun,
it's just it's there. That's what the sun does.
You're too hot, but.
That's what it is.
That is how I'm beginning to look at.
The nature. Of.
The public consciousness with
respect. To issues.
That should, in my view.
Capture the hearts and minds of thinking, feeling empathetic
people who want to live in a more just society.
And want to leave a place behind that will be better than the one
that they were in.
It just seems to be every man for himself in every
woman, to herself and.
I commend those
that. Actually are out there trying to produce
change. 'cause it's not easy.
It takes time and energy and all of the things that you need to
get done and could be doing.
You are putting to the side.
In order to try to do something.
To just make the place you live in a better place.
And.
It's frustrating and.
It makes me angry sometimes. I had a man.
Reach out to me in a direct
message. And tell me that.
When I was arrested, the police should have dragged me out the
car an blew my brains out for what I did.
And.
I said to him.
In response.
Do you believe?
Everyone who commits this type of crime should suffer that same
fate, and he said absolutely.
And I said.
Does age make a difference?
He said no. I said, well, what
about 12? Said 12 year old knows
right from wrong? I said what about 10?
He said 10 year olds know the difference between they know
killing somebody is wrong and would you believe I was able to
walk him back all the way to
about age. Six before.
He was. Not as strident, but.
You know, for a second, I thought that.
This guy might be a kook.
No, he's not. This is a thinking person who votes.
And, whose own
Life.
Has shaped his views in the same way that my life has shaped mine
and I didn't say not.
A single.
Disrespectful thing to him no ad
hominem attacks. At the end of the dialogue, I even thanked him
for sharing his views.
And that's not easy to do.
When somebody is saying something that is
completely opposed to everything you believe in.
But I think it's something I have to strive to do, and I
think we all should because.
When it comes to trying to advocate for criminal justice
reform. You can never forget.
Notwithstanding The trauma and abuse in nightmare lives
that led countless people to get involved in delinquency
and crime.
I've heard somebody many of us have hurt people.
Lives.
Property. Trauma. All of it has been inflicted.
By a large number of those who we are advocating for.
And I believe it's important that I remain very mindful.
And respectful. An understanding of those
oppositional views.
Because. They're speaking their truth just like I'm tr-.
Speaking mine, and this is what democracy is about. It's about
speaking your truth. It's about advocating for it and it is
about trying to move the public consciousness in the direction
that you believe society should go towards and.
I believe all of that can be done.
Through discourse.
And advocacy, and that's what
I'm doing. And.
I don't know if it's going to amount to anything in the end.
I truly hope it does.
I mean, the efforts of Green River College with
their reentry.
The efforts that a lot of.
College institutions are now
making. To give former prisoners an opportunity to
get a higher education.
When I was confined.
All the sudden prisoners after over 20 years suddenly were able
to take college courses.
And receive Pell grants.
It seems like things are changing.
Even in. The midst of an administration that many people
are opposed to.
My cell mates mom.
Was going to be freed.
Because of changes to federal law in a second Chance Act.
And all of a sudden prisoners around me who were facing
consecutive federal sentence is we're getting letters from
federal public defenders informing them that.
It appears that they have an opportunity to be resentenced to
lesser time and.
I mean, it seems like changes happening, but.
Change is so slow.
It took 27 years.
For policy makers.
To decide that.
I should be given an opportunity to be free.
Because the axe in my crimes that I committed
when I was 14 years old.
Mitigate my responsibility. It took 1/4 century for that to
happen. And three parole hearings.
And.
You know progress. It's it's not easy, but I
try to remain mindful.
Of. Just how long the civil rights movement?
Lasted.
That was a fight.
And people were being lynched
and killed. For protesting.
And yet they persisted, and so.
I believe in criminal justice reform.
I believe. That
A person should not be judged.
Based upon the worst act of their life.
That who they have become.
And their entire life should be looked into holistically.
I believe that people upon their
release. Should not be barred.
From opportunities Because of the stigma.
Of being felons or laws that permanently disenfranchise
them from ever being able to truly successfully
reintegrate into society.
I believe in change.
I've seen it.
I have friends out here who are living examples of it.
From a man named David.
Who used to be called No Brains
Who committed a terrible crime when he was 16 and
spent 20 years confined in now is executive
director of a nonprofit.
Working on re entry.
And reform.
I have a friend named Olof.
Committed a terrible crime when he was a teenager.
And is now an honor student at the University of Washington and
is a social justice advocate.
To see what these men and others are doing.
And to know.
How many others?
Could be contributing in the same way if given an
opportunity for release.
I believe it's a human tragedy.
It's a tragedy.
That All of that potential.
In all.
Of those people.
Who just want to try to make amends and be contributing
members of society?
Will never have that opportunity because of the nature of our
system as it currently exists, I believe that's a tragedy.
But I also know.
That I caused the tragedy.
And.
There are countless others.
Who believe? Rightly so.
That someone.
Who destroys the lives of other people?
Should never be given an opportunity.
To ever be free.
And.
That is the world I exist in.
But notwithstanding that recognition and acknowledgement.
I'm going to keep doing the work.
Thank you.
And I'm open to any questions anyone might have.
-Thank you Jeremiah.
For sharing your lived
experience and. Doing so with.
Such honesty and humility.
We have we have a number of questions that people are
asking and I have one from a student. Vincent says if you
were given an option, would you want to relive this life and
create change or live a different life with different
goals?
Big question.
-No, I wouldn't want to live this life.
No way. Ah.
That
Prison.
You know?
No, I wouldn't want to live this life because ultimately.
All of the opportunities I have.
To affect change.
Come. As a concequence.
Of taking a man's life and destroying his family and so.
No, I would definitely.
Hit control alt delete if there was some way I could have put my
life on another trajectory.
-Thank you, somebody else is asked what help you during the
reentry process and what would you do differently if anything?
During the re entry process.
-I think I would have taken more time off before
starting law school.
I was just naive. I didn't know, you know, I've seen countless
men come back to prison. Even men who have spent decades
confined. And they come back.
And.
Whether they got hooked on drugs and started committing crime
again or. Some domestic violence incident. It can come in so many
different ways that I remember.
Walking laps with other prisoners who had life and had
never had that opportunity. And we say to ourselves, what clown.
How do you blow that?
I would never just give me a chance watch this ends, never
going to happen.
Oh, I get it now.
I get it.
Because, but for the fact that I was locked up so young.
That I did not have any alcohol or drug addictions.
I promise you, I would be drinking and getting high right
now. Because.
That prison is no joke man,
it's. I got out.
With all kinds of ideas in my
head about. Intimacy.
And came to realize I actually had a sexual dysfunction.
Because.
I had lived at 27 years since I was a child with no intimacy.
Your body doesn't even respond.
To touch and caress.
And being able to look in the person's eyes that you love
deeply in feel.
What you're supposed to be feeling?
That
Is something you can never conceive of when you're in there
wanting to get out, but it is just one of countless struggles
with re entry.
From the years you spent in Solitary Confinement to the
lack of intimacy to the heightened vigilance, all of it.
Becomes manifest when you get out of that controlled
environment, and that is when you have to try to find a
way to deal with those struggles, and I have nothing
but empathy now for all of those people I see return to prison.
For what seems like the most absurd things that they're just
repeatedly throwing their lives away, no. The nature of
confinement is traumatizing, and you had people who were broken
when they got in there and who have been shattered through the
process of being confined. And they get out there. And it is
not simply a matter of you somehow put yourself together
when you were in there, no matter how you might have been
presenting. I mean, I was writing in academic journals
when I was confined.
I was college educated. You would look at me and hear me
talk and say this guy gots it. It's going to work perfectly.
But that guy does not understand how broken he has become an I
am just thankful I have a loving fiance and supportive family and
a mentor that.
Are now being the glue to help me try to put myself back
together because plenty of people end up using illicit
substances and alcohol in order to try to cope with what
confinement is done.
-Thank you Jeremiah.
A question from Rebecca and instructor here at Green
River, they ask, given your experience in both confinement
in academia, where do you see the biggest opportunity for
faculty to affect change?
-I think within their institutions.
Especially when it comes to.
Reform and bringing in the voices of those who
can speak through lived experience, I didn't realize
until I got out.
Just how painful it is to share.
One story and their narrative.
And.
It's like ripping off a scab every time.
It starts healing a little more.
But you still.
Expose that wound and
it's. It's not only advocating within ones
institution to try to create more opportunities and
change the consciousness of an academic bureaucracy.
But it's also.
As individuals because.
There are many of us who have been silenced so long.
That we will readily leap at
any opportunity. To share our experience in an effort
to advance reform.
But many of us.
Including myself, especially initially.
Do not understand just how traumatic that is. I had a
student at University of Washington share with me that.
She calls it trauma porn.
And it was such a graphic but telling.
Phrase that I've got where she was coming from, and so while
there is much value.
And hearing from those who have lived experience,
whether it's experience with homelessness, abuse.
You need to be mindful.
Of these people.
And what they're actually giving in order to try.
To illuminate.
A personal. Aspect of a
larger problem. And whether that's through.
Recognizing their worth with an honorarium or?
Providing transportation for them to get to a venue.
It's.
One has to be mindful that most of these people are poor.
And traumatized and.
Many of us don't even realize it.
-Thank you. I have a follow up but I want to.
I want to ask I want to ask Izzy's question which is after
your lived experience. Do you have any ideas on how to reach?
Quote At risk youth that are currently confined. Is there a
way to help them see their true potential at an earlier
age?
-You know, I don't know.
All I have is myself as in my experience and the rest of my
experiences all been limited to.
Adult facilities and.
When I look back at my life.
By the time I ended up going back and forth to.
The local juvenile detention center.
Ironically, I think that.
Had someone That the goal should have been changed.
The goal for me should have been complete crime assistance.
Because if somebody could have convinced me to just
go to school.
That would have reduced 8 hours of potential misconduct
that I would be getting up to just by the very nature of
being at the schoolhouse as opposed to ripping and running
the streets. And so if there is an intervention.
Expelling these kids.
I don't care what that behavior is. If you just have to put them
in a room where all they do is break dance, listen to loud
music and act boisterous.
They're not on the streets.
She's not out on the street getting pregnant or raped.
He's not out there selling drugs or stealing cars, or
potentially getting kidnapped.
He's in a school, even if he's not learning.
He's not committing crimes, he's she's not posing a danger to
herself, and they're not in danger because of the nature of
how brutal those streets are.
-Thank you, Jeremiah. Along the same lines, do you see the DOC
that's sort of current state or as
an institution, an ally in the sort of movement of reform or
or is the DOC something of an obstacle?
-It's an obstacle.
And.
I mean for generations. -Cross Talk
-Sorry, for people who might not understand the DOC
stands for Department of Corrections. I apologize, thanks.
Sure the Department of
Corrections. I mean, they've been socialized in the same way
that the public has.
Ah. Whether it is a.
The narrative of the Super predator.
That led countless young men and women to be tried and sentenced
as adults. Whether it's.
The stigmatization. Of.
Someone being a felon or
convict? Uh.
You know there are no different than.
The average member of the public, with the exception that
day, in and day out, they have to deal with maintaining.
The safety of the institution in control over men and women who
don't want to be there. And when you already have preconceived
notions about a population.
And. You steadily
have examples. That
confirm. What your preconceived notions are
and you already have.
A personal bias in what you're actually perceiving in
filtering out. I just don't know how you can transform an
institution like that into one that all the sudden is geared
towards seeing the men and women who are confined as.
A potential neighbor.
Or a coworker.
Or a coach for their kids. Little League softball team.
It's. I just can't see it and because of.
The perception of those who were
confined. I think that is ultimately always going to
drive. How the Department of Corrections goes about its
business, even if they do take.
Steps to try to reform their institutions in a way that are
geared more towards reform and re entry as opposed to
incapacitation and retribution.
-Thank you, she's never questioned Prince from Salama
and ask the second question first, which is how are you
fighting the stigma on formally incarcerated
citizens, especially as an African American law student
attending a low diversity rate. Private Catholic
University.
-One more time.
-So how are you fighting the stigma on formerly incarcerated
citizens, especially as an African American law student
attending a Catholic University that's not very diverse?
Or isn't very diverse at all.
-So.
What's interesting is.
There is something about being transformed into a law student.
That almost is the antidote to the stigma that I carried.
As just. A released.
Prisoner who spent decades confined and somehow learn to
write and speak articulately.
Ah.
It was almost miraculous.
The day that I started using.
An email that said law school.
@gonzaga.edu. It changed
everything. And.
I'm an outlier.
I know my circumstances, I'm I'm
the Unicorn. And so.
The stigma that I faced.
It's not even worth complaining about, because
ultimately.
I'm in law school.
Notwithstanding its racial or ethnic makeup.
Ah. I have access to student loans.
I'm not struggling financially.
Anymore than any other law students is and so.
I've been blessed to not have to be burdened by the stigma that I
ultimately would have.
But
What it's made me appreciate is.
Status.
And just how real? That is, because the work I'm doing now.
Is no different than what I was
doing. Before I became a law
student. I was doing these things while I was confined.
I was doing these things while taking the LSAT. I was
doing these things before I ever got a letter of
acceptance from Gonzaga.
But I lacked credibility.
Notwithstanding all of that, because ironically.
Many of those that operate in this space of advocacy.
Are highly educated.
They worked terribly hard.
To dedicate their life to public service.
And many of them even have it
difficult time. To accept someone with my background as an
equal. And who adds just as much value as they do
notwithstanding the degrees?
Or the lived experience in the world of nonprofits and
advocacy work.
In that for me.
Was a bigger barrier.
Then the stigmas that one would ultimately think would plague
someone who has.
A criminal history like mine.
And.
I think the lesson and that is.
Just because you're fighting the
good fight. Don't think that you are immune.
To bias
To prejudice. To elitism.
Everybody.
Can fall victim to that.
No matter what political party
you support. Or what issues are dear to you or even what work
you've dedicated your life too?
We all have to be mindful, myself included.
Because.
The people you care about the most can ultimately
be the ones that you are causing the most harm.
-Thank you, umm here's
a question. For people who are sort of people in the
free world, how my day best get involved to serve or to serve
people who are incarcerated or.
On the cusp of being released, what role can people in the
free world play that we would like to see like see?
-You know, I think just.
It matters what ones capacity
is. You know?
I've now learned just how valuable time is now that I'm
actually having to keep a schedule and manage my life and
so. You know it's not easy.
Ah. But
There are countless nonprofits. Whether you're a student.
And you want to help
Prisoners
Who are trying to gain a higher education, the University Beyond
bars is one of that. One of
those. Whether you're trying to
help. Prisoners receive a second chance the Seattle Clemency
Project is geared towards that.
Whether you're looking.
To help the homeless.
There are so many men and women who are on the streets.
And a contributing factor is there criminal histories.
Helping at a homeless shelter.
Giving some of your clothes to a place that.
Is geared towards trying to find clothing for people that need it
to get a job.
I mean, there's people that can't even get, you know, I I
didn't even realize this and this just shows the blindness
that many of us have. There are four work signs all over Spokane
where I reside.
And.
I said to myself, I think I said it out loud. I was talking on
the phone to a friend and I was like man, I just passed this
dude man completely healthy. He said something to me about
giving him some money. I gave him a couple bucks and but I was
thinking to myself. Man they got all these jobs, why don't he
just go and apply for one?
And my partner said to me.
Bro, he not might not even have clothes to go to an interview.
Or place to shower before the
interview. Or transportation to get to and from wherever he's going
to find a place to stay in order to get to work.
And it just I was
stunned. At how foolish my
thinking was. But it was. I was naive.
And many of us are when it comes to many of these issues, but I
know that was a segway, but I
just think. Bing mindful in actually proactive about.
How can I help prisoners?
Get an education or with re entry. I've learned the value of
Siri and she answers all kinds of questions for me that I need
solutions to and so just be proactive, an intentional and
you will find your calling based on what you're geared towards.
Where you best fit in what actually moves you and your
capacity and intentionality in mindfulness is all you need.
You don't need me as a guide, you just need to follow your
heart and put it into action.
-Thanks Jeremiah I should add that I taught at University Beyond
Bars. Now it's struck by the volunteers who would come to
study Hall, which happened on
the weekends. I'm just sitting with sitting with the people
inside and sort of helping them with their homework.
With transformative for me as a volunteer and they know there's
a similar program close to Green River called Freedom Education,
Puget Sound at the women's
prison. I believe this probably something in the jail at Auburn
and even something as simple as contributing to someone's
literacy through the Public Library system would be another
really really positive step.
Go ahead. -What's interesting about those experiences with the
University Beyond bars. Those were the first opportunities
that I had.
To actually interact with free people.
I didn't even know I was smart until I was interacting in these
mixed enrollment classes with students from the University of
Washington. In all the sudden, they're saying things like.
Gosh, you speak so well.
How would you know that living in a box?
And so.
It's strange that.
Even. For more than.
Helping incarcerated people.
With. Literature
or mathematics. Just having somebody to
recognize your worth, especially when you are
absolutely clueless.
That you have any value.
It's that really was.
Affirming And.
Notwithstanding my publications in writing.
And.
My ability to speak effectively. I have impostor syndrome. I have
low self esteem and.
People are always find that fascinating because I mean,
I've even had correctional staff put in.
Computer systems that, oh, he's arrogant. And when I finally saw
some of those diagnostic
reports. I found it so hilarious because I was
like if this doesn't tell you about peoples
perceptual lenses, nothing else will but.
I mean.
There are people confined.
Who from a very young age?
Never were given.
Uh.
You did good.
I'm so proud of you.
Ah.
That
Man, those early experiences man, form men and women.
And. You know?
There's a reason that so many people can find get out thinking
that they're going to fail.
Because they've never sat.
With a professor.
Who actually said
That's a great point.
That's a great point, the
professor said. Or students that
you know. Or at these excellent schools, nodding their head in
listening closely to what you're
saying. I had never experienced anything like that.
And.
Undoubtedly.
It helped shape my trajectory.
And put me on the path that I'm on right now.
It definitely helped an. I believe more interactions like
that trying to break the barriers between those confined
and local communities would add tremendous value if reducing
one's likelihood to reoffend is truly the objective of the
correctional system. -You you speak to somebody, I was
thinking about it. You know the prison walls are there as much
to keep free people out.
As it is to keep in prison
people in. Those walls work both ways? Would you be willing to
speak a little bit about the UW classes you participated in?
Because I think it's Stephen Herbert who might have been one
of the instructors. Or how do they function? Does that work?
And what's the experience? Like
a little bit more? -So I attended some mixed enrollment classes
with both Professor Herbert, an professor Katherine Beckett's
and how these classes worked is half of the students would be
part of the law. Justice in society program at the
University of Washington, where the other half would be.
Incarcerated students participating through the
University of Beyond Bars and everybody would be taking the
same course, have the same assignments, the difference
being that those students from the outside would actually.
Have their face to face instruction done in a classroom
with in Washington state
Reformatory and.
That was not an easy thing to make happen, and, ah, I
commend the administrators at that facility, not only for
allowing it to initially happen, but for allow it,
allowing it to continue because while I recognize the
value of all of this.
All of it.
Poses a potential risk.
To the safety and security of
institutions. Are
People from the outside might.
Become attached to a particular
prisoner. Weather emotionally because they have a romantic
attachment or just empathy for somebody that they see is
suffering such a terrible injustice. And what would you do
for somebody that you thought
was suffering? The worst injustice you had ever seen.
Would you bring him?
Some cigarettes in order to.
Or some candy.
Some Skittles that he hasn't tasted in 30 years.
And so I mean, it's a real potential threat to allow those
interactions to take place, but I think ultimately.
From a macro perspective.
Undermining?
Having a potential risk to the orderly operation of a
Correctional Facility is worth it, if ultimately it will reduce
the likelihood that people will get out an risk public safety.
And so if there's going to be a risk better it be in a
controlled environment than in the free world. And so I think
those walls should come down in those barriers should be removed
because. I think in the end it will produce men and women
who are better able to successfully reenter society
when they're released.
-Thank you, I'm just gonna say this to put it out into the
universe because it's something I believe in and I hope that it
could become a reality at Green River. I think we really, really
cool if faculty, especially full time staff. They could have a
course release in order to teach that, say, the women's prison
once once a year or something just to create the relationship
between an academic institution and a so called Correctional
Institution to sort of bridge bridge those gaps that are very,
very wide. I want to let I want to let attendees know
that they can raise their hand and ask a questions
Jeremiah. Will will release will free up your mic if you'd
like.
Sure. And there's one follow-up that's law Master
Somos, asked earlier, excuse me.
And you touched on this a little bit, but.
Do you have any suggestions to better or or? Do you have any
suggestions about opportunities that can be offered to prisoners
either upon release or or as their prior to getting released?
That sort of might help them sort of garbled that. Hope you
got that. -Aah you know, ultimately?
The thing you need.
When you are released.
Is a place to live.
A stable, stable shelter.
Food. Clothing. And a job.
You would be shocked in how many people.
Are devoting their time to trying to get a nest
egg just to take care.
Of that, what we refer to as a
starter kit? I mean there are people can find right now who
are engaged in illicit activities just so they can
reduce their likelihood to commit crimes. Uppon being free
because they need a starter kit to try to get their life
together. And it's.
You know there has been.
Legislative proposals About
Better access to reentry tools and whether it's transitional,
expanding transitional housing and work release.
But it just.
There just isn't enough movement and.
While people will say.
While they're confined.
I'm never coming back here.
I never gonna do nothing to come back and live like this.
I'll rather live under bridge then have to live in a cell
there. Be stuck in solitary confinement.
That sounds good in the
abstract. But when you get out
here. And you have a choice between going under a bridge.
Or calling your homeboy and having him drop you
off a sack of dope.
And post it up in the casino and
slanging. That casino sounds a whole lot better than being
under that bridge, and that is coming from a man who is in law
school. Who is completely opposed to crime and who
is working
To ensure people aren't victimized.
Notwithstanding all that.
I perfectly get why
somebody. Would pick up a sack of dope instead of going under
that bridge. It's not an excuse.
Uh, I'm not endorsing it.
But I get it.
-Can you let us know I if I understand correctly, the
Department of Corrections, Ipon release will give a bus ticket
and $40 to someone who's leaving prison. Is that accurate? That
is the ticket. Depends on all where you're going and if you
have transportation. I believe I was given $40. I was also given
a check from the money of the Department of Corrections is
required to save 10% of any money that sent to a prisoner in
order for them to have something upon their release. That's a
legislative mandate. And so you know, I had a couple hundred bucks
in a check. And $40 in cash, and they even gave me.
Some type of card to use the pay phone? Apparently they
didn't realize that there's no payphones anywhere,
because I couldn't find them. But you know.
For the most fortunate.
They do have better opportunities to transition and
the Department through the ledge through legislative acts have
expanded different types of reentry programs. Now you can
stay in work release for a year as opposed to just six months
and saving your money for year.
Can change everything, even if you're working minimum
wage, specially when you have someplace to go, you'd not
worrying about how you're going to feed yourself. That
makes a difference.
They've now expanded house arrest so that.
With a year left on your sentence, you can do six
months in work release and the last six months in the Home
Reintegrating with your family and child and you know all of
these things do make a difference, but it's just a
drop in the bucket compared to the need that's out there and.
Plenty of people just leave
with. Their box of property.
And, uh.
Yeah, figure it out.
-Follow up question do in respect to when when people leave. I
understand many people sort of will have a transitional step
where they're living in housing. That sort of DOC run and I
understand that there might be. This is just sort of word of
mouth that in those houses the staff are more inclined to say
get a job rather than sure take college classes. Is there sort
of a attention between someone in that position wanting to
continue in education? They might have started but being
told hey you need to get.
Steady employment, which would limit their ability to pursue
college or my miss miss speaking? -Is this with Respect to work
release or transition houses?
-I don't know the difference. I'm sorry so I don't know.
-Sure, I'll draw the distinction so a work release facility.
Is. A place that so you are still technically in
confinement when you're in a work release facility. You're
partial confinement while you're allowed to leave and go to work
and have passes to spend 12 hours several times a week with
family members, you're still under the custody and control of
the Department of Corrections.
Many of them still have a correctional staff member on
site and so.
I've never been to a work
release facility. And depending on which one,
because they are all unique, it is possible that some.
Want to urge prisoners to pursue employment as opposed to
education but Department of Corrections policy in this
state? Gives prisoners the
option. To either work or pursue education while in work,
release. So while someone who didn't know policies might have
felt compelled to do one as opposed to the other as the
policy exists, prisoners have an option to choose between working
or pursuing some type of
education. And with respect to transition houses, those are
actually privately owned homes.
And the state, like a group
home. And there might be 6 to 10 prisoners, two to three to a
room with bunk beds who are living there, and the state
provides about $550 a month per head for the first three months
that they reside there in order just to try to provide some type
of cushion for somebody.
To find something a better situation, whether it's a
job or place to stay. But after three months they are
on their own, but.
I mean, a lot has changed over the years. I was
confined. I mean there was a time when you didn't even
have ID when you left prison.
And so you might go to the DMV, Gerald Hankerson with
the NAACP. Experienced this himself, he had the governor
commute his sentence and he gets out after over 20 years of
imprisonment and the DMV, all he had was his Washington State
Department of Corrections, ID.
And that wasn't good enough. He even had articles showing.
Is it that I'm I'm this guy? The governor freed me, didn't work,
a call, had to actually be made from my understanding to the
Superintendent of the prison, and these are all like these are
barriers to reentry. If you don't have ID, you can't do
nothing. But today I mean I left with a Washington state ID. I
had a transition house to go to. I had medical insurance through
the state, aid the state plan and so that all of that is a big
deal. But it's just.
Given the mass incarceration.
It's too little and it only helps too few and I just
happened to be one of the
fortunate few. -Thank you Jeremiah I just have one follow up question
to sort of end on a high note and that is that I'd love to
sort of ask you what will you graduate with from Gonzaga and
what are your plans to do.
What do you plan to follow up with the degree you'll end up
with? -You know, I at first I wanted to actually do defense
work. And actually work directly with people who are involved in
the system. And I realized at this stage of my.
Re entry, I don't have the psychological capacity
reading the transcripts.
Of hearings seeing crime scene photos, hearing victims talk
about the pain that they went through. I just can't deal that
directly with the system. And So what I'm going to try to do
matter fact it's not even a try. What I am going to do is try
to use my voice.
In whatever settings where I think policy makers and decision
makers are whether it's at legislative hearings, whether
it's at events, whether it's talking to students and
activists trying to use my story to just as one example, and it's
only one, there are countless others who stories are being
written and who have yet to be told. But to use my story in a
way that will just.
Provide further evidence that notwithstanding the worst acts of
our lives and notwithstanding the nature of confinement,
people can change. And even now I'm going to be starting a
Kickstarter campaign to get my memoir published just to try to
use that as a further catalyst
for. To spur that dialogue, and so I mean.
Whether I'm working in private
practice. At a corporate law firm, I can assure you my free
time, just as it is right now. While I'm in law school, will be
spent trying to speak for those.
Who can't speak for themselves?
-Thank you. You've been so gracious with your time and and
sharing your story so openly and honestly.
Really, really value and appreciate these past two
hours. -Thank you.